Not Enough Evidence to Impeach/Convict Trump

[screen glare]

Really? The many videos with audio of the incitement pronouncements, and the violent coup attempt that followed seems like incontrovertible evidence - in heaping, bloody, bellowing, portions!

“We’re here at Trump’s invitation!”
“Trump told us to fight like hell to take back our country!”

[bmw]

It is a complete waste of my time to try to lay out the legal argument for you, so I won't even bother. You've already tried and convicted him in your mind, so why even bother with a trial?

[Bryce]

Yup, anyone at a rally that stirs up a crowd by saying, "You have unleashed the whirlwind and you will pay the price. You won't know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions.". Should be convicted.

[Mark Elliott]

It is a complete waste of my time to try to lay out the legal argument for you, so I won't even bother. You've already tried and convicted him in your mind, so why even bother with a trial?

I haven't made up my mind.. lay it out for me. I have an open mind

[jadednihilist]

From a broad point of view, I do strongly believe that we need to reign in the powers of the executive branch, and have some sort of mechanism of accountability beyond elections - and it's frustrating that this work is left almost exclusively to the executive branch (aside from the Chief Justice presiding over impeachment trials and congressional subpoenas being pushed through the courts). To me, it's unclear whether or not the Office of the President is above the law - and that's deeply concerning.

I do think, at minimum, Trump's post election behavior was worthy of indictment, which is essentially the function of impeachment, and that this case does need to be heard at the conviction/Senate level. I don't buy the post-presidency constitutionality argument, because that can be interpreted as a slippery slope and carte blanch for future presidents in the lame duck portion of their term.

In regards to Trump's case, one piece of evidence that I do find compelling is the aggregated cellphone data that a source provided to the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/opin ... -data.html). I wish that this data could be corroborated through more neutral channels than a NYT Opinion piece, but I do not have reason to believe this data was fabricated. What this animation shows is the a moving timeline of where the mob participants were at the time of the President's speech and tracks them on their march to the US Capitol. There needs to be a more formalized investigation into the events of the day, the motivation behind those in the mob, and whether or not they were directly motivated by the actions of the President - otherwise I do fear that this process is seen as overtly political, which would be counterproductive.

[Rate This]

It is a complete waste of my time to try to lay out the legal argument for you, so I won't even bother. You've already tried and convicted him in your mind, so why even bother with a trial?

Don’t bother trying to add in “you can’t impeach an ex president”. They aren’t.

[km1125]

Really? The many videos with audio of the incitement pronouncements, and the violent coup attempt that followed seems like incontrovertible evidence - in heaping, bloody, bellowing, portions!

“We’re here at Trump’s invitation!”
“Trump told us to fight like hell to take back our country!”

For those folks who also say that "aliens from Mars" made them commit some crime, first - do you believe they actually heard something from aliens, and second - do you go after the aliens for the crimes they committed?

Didn't a lot of the ruckus at the Capitol start well before the rally speeches ended?

[Rate This]

Really? The many videos with audio of the incitement pronouncements, and the violent coup attempt that followed seems like incontrovertible evidence - in heaping, bloody, bellowing, portions!

“We’re here at Trump’s invitation!”
“Trump told us to fight like hell to take back our country!”

For those folks who also say that "aliens from Mars" made them commit some crime, first - do you believe they actually heard something from aliens, and second - do you go after the aliens for the crimes they committed?

Didn't a lot of the ruckus at the Capitol start well before the rally speeches ended?

No. The Rally and his speech ended at 1 or so... then the folks converged on the capital. The cell phone location data is damning.

[km1125]

No. The Rally and his speech ended at 1 or so... then the folks converged on the capital. The cell phone location data is damning.

Ended at 1, you say?

From a quick search:
12:30 p.m.: Crowds of pro-Trump supporters gather outside the U.S. Capitol building.
12:53 p.m.: Rioters overwhelm police along the outer perimeter west of the Capitol building,

Subtract out the time it would take to make it through the crowds and get down to the Capitol, and how much earlier would they have to have left the rally? Most of those folks didn't look like very good sprinters either.

[Rate This]

No. The Rally and his speech ended at 1 or so... then the folks converged on the capital. The cell phone location data is damning.

Ended at 1, you say?

From a quick search:
12:30 p.m.: Crowds of pro-Trump supporters gather outside the U.S. Capitol building.
12:53 p.m.: Rioters overwhelm police along the outer perimeter west of the Capitol building,

Subtract out the time it would take to make it through the crowds and get down to the Capitol, and how much earlier would they have to have left the rally? Most of those folks didn't look like very good sprinters either.

You haven’t seen the really cool cell phone location time lapse have you?

[screen glare]

If Trump’s not held accountable for his words, tone, and timing (shouting “fire” in a crowded theatre - is not free speech - as the reaction may be violently, fatally consequential) then other president’s may wait until their time in office is extremely short - and attempt a lethal coup.

[bmw]

It is a complete waste of my time to try to lay out the legal argument for you, so I won't even bother. You've already tried and convicted him in your mind, so why even bother with a trial?

I haven't made up my mind.. lay it out for me. I have an open mind

I won't re-hash it but I covered this and linked an article to it about a month ago in here:

https://mibuzzboard.com/phpBB3/viewtopi ... 78#p653178

The short version is that his speech was Constitutionally protected.

[Deleted User 9015]

No. The Rally and his speech ended at 1 or so... then the folks converged on the capital. The cell phone location data is damning.

Ended at 1, you say?

From a quick search:
12:30 p.m.: Crowds of pro-Trump supporters gather outside the U.S. Capitol building.
12:53 p.m.: Rioters overwhelm police along the outer perimeter west of the Capitol building,

Subtract out the time it would take to make it through the crowds and get down to the Capitol, and how much earlier would they have to have left the rally? Most of those folks didn't look like very good sprinters either.

You haven’t seen the really cool cell phone location time lapse have you?

Everyone leaves an event and arrives at an event at the exact same time! Everyone left at exactly 12:30! Everyone was involved in overwhelming at exactly 12:53! No one left early or arrived late!

That's how it works!

[TC Shuts Up]

The problem is that the Left doesn't feel restricted by the US Constitution, and hasn't for around 50 years, maybe more. It goes back to the Vietnam War. Maybe before.

Trump certainly said nothing incendiary, unless you think telling the truth is incendiary. Listen to what Leftists said and directly threatened Trump over the last five years, and said many things that encouraged rioting last Summer. That was incitement. Learn English if you don't think so.

https://www.wnd.com/2008/10/79225/

I think it was Adolf Hitler who said that a Treaty was just a piece of paper. Many on the Left feel, like Adolf Hitler, that the US Constitution is just a piece of paper.

[Rate This]

No. The Rally and his speech ended at 1 or so... then the folks converged on the capital. The cell phone location data is damning.

Ended at 1, you say?

From a quick search:
12:30 p.m.: Crowds of pro-Trump supporters gather outside the U.S. Capitol building.
12:53 p.m.: Rioters overwhelm police along the outer perimeter west of the Capitol building,

Subtract out the time it would take to make it through the crowds and get down to the Capitol, and how much earlier would they have to have left the rally? Most of those folks didn't look like very good sprinters either.

You haven’t seen the really cool cell phone location time lapse have you?

Everyone leaves an event and arrives at an event at the exact same time! Everyone left at exactly 12:30! Everyone was involved in overwhelming at exactly 12:53! No one left early or arrived late!

That's how it works!

The time lapse shows everyone moving in a matter of minutes... they don’t all move at once.