The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

[FakeAndyStuart]

If you're referring to the Texas shooting, we don't know much other than that the shooter wasn't white, and was apparently bullied in middle and early high school.

Delete your account. This is beyond the pale. We know a lot more than that. We know that young children had to be identified by DNA because the AR rifle the shooter used to murder them tore their faces apart. We know he purchased that gun minutes after turning 18. And we know that the "good guys with guns" didn't stop him because of the flack jackets.

I know, there are two VERY polarized sides to this. "Take away all their guns" on one end of the rope and "I demand the right to have a howitzer on my front yard" pulling the other end. And all the arguing, name calling and meme throwing only leads to another person shooting up more innocent people.

If you aren't sickened by this, you are not human. I don't know what the solution is.. but a comment like the one in quotes above is truly upsetting. Delete your account, you are only causing problems, not trying to solve them.

[bmw]

Calm down there, buddy. I was referring specifically to the shooter's motives. We don't know what motivated him. Look back at the question I was responding to: whether "hate" was still the problem. I said all we know was the shooter's race and his history of being bullied.

Of course this sickens me. I want to know in the cases where race isn't the motivating factor then what is motivating these kids to go into a school of their peers (yeah I know in this case he was no longer in school) and shoot up the place. Nobody seems to want to try to figure that out. I'm nearly equally sickened by how politicians use these incidents to further their political agendas (and in cases of race-driven shootings, how the media uses these cases to throw fuel on the flames of racism).

You attacking me in this manner is without support and overall uncalled for. Honeyman didn't express any sympathy for the victims either. Or does he get a pass because he, like you, thinks that ultimately the gun is the problem and I don't?

[FakeAndyStuart]

Calm down there, buddy. I was referring specifically to the shooter's motives.

And once again, we have to talk around the problem without trying to come up with solutions.

I've got a couple -

Don't make semi automatic weapons so easily available.
Offer high quality mental health care for those in Texas in need.
We should start voting out those who take large amounts of political donations from the NRA.

What's yours?

[bmw]

You got the response you got because the first 3 words out of your mouth were "delete your account. (Your post) is beyond the pale)"

But I'll address your solutions one at a time:

-Semi-automatic weapons aren't the problem. To the extent there's a correlation between availability of weapons and mass shootings, there's lots of correlations between availability of things and people ending up dead. Take alcohol for instance. I'm sure there's a direct correlation between traffic fatalities and the availability of booze. But how well did prohibition turn out?

And that brings me to your 3rd item - the NRA. Take that issue up with our founding fathers, not the entity that defends a Constitutional right. There are many groups that take absolutist positions defending the 1st and 4th Amendments, and they rarely get criticized. I'm not sure what is so special about the NRA.

As to mental health - I can't comment on that as I do not know what the state of mental health assistance in Texas currently is. I agree in principle that we need to get help to people who need it, but "offering high quality" version of it seems quite vague.

Lastly, you want my solution? I believe the sad reality is, there isn't one, at least not in my lifetime. Unless you can figure out why this is a uniquely American problem. And no, it isn't availability of guns because on a per-capita basis, while the US leads the world in school shootings by leaps and bounds, we're not even in the Top 10 when it comes to other types of shootings. So it is something unique not just about America, but American schools.

[FakeAndyStuart]

And no, it isn't availability of guns because on a per-capita basis, while the US leads the world in school shootings by leaps and bounds, we're not even in the Top 10 when it comes to other types of shootings.

Please document this in some way. I can't seem to find any backup for this.

However, there is some research that shows "fewer guns = fewer deaths"

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... tings.html

(and please don't give me the "Ah, The Times is a liberal rag that just wants to take away my firearm" - the author documents everything with the original source.)

there's lots of correlations between availability of things and people ending up dead. Take alcohol for instance. I'm sure there's a direct correlation between traffic fatalities and the availability of booze. But how well did prohibition turn out?

Prohibition was a failure. Raising the drinking age to 21 was not.

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/fil ... 11n2-8.pdf
(oh, the Cato Institute - see, some of us like to look at facts despite the perceived "political leanings" of the source.

Perhaps some ideas on who can get guns and how they are obtained. Liquor is tightly controlled by state and local governments. Guns are sold at state fairs by unvetted vendors.

Take that issue up with our founding fathers, not the entity that defends a Constitutional right. There are many groups that take absolutist positions defending the 1st and 4th Amendments, and they rarely get criticized. I'm not sure what is so special about the NRA.

What's special about the NRA is the amount of money they spend to achieve their one specific goal. But I can see your point, so let me change my statement -

"We should start voting out those who take large amounts of political donations from any organization or corporate entity"

You are right, the founding fathers had NO vision on how much money would get spent to obtain governmental power. I say take all the money out of it, and go back to those local debates in high schools and public meeting rooms so a House candidate's constituents can ask questions and make a decision.

And I'm truly tired of constant reference to "our founding fathers." They owned slaves, didn't think women should vote, and didn't want the federal government to be able to tax its citizens. That all got changed because they also created a system to change it. (In fact, they IMMEDIATELY changed some of it themselves.) We can change it...

[Matt]

I find that the time to discuss a major issue is right after a major traumatic event. Who doesn't like using a tragedy when emotions are running high to advocate for a long held opinion?

[FakeAndyStuart]

I find that the time to discuss a major issue is right after a major traumatic event. Who doesn't like using a tragedy when emotions are running high to advocate for a long held opinion?

Unfortunately, in the ADD country we live in, in two days we'll move back to argue the Heard/Depp trial again.
Or, they happen so often there is no time when emotions DON'T run high. We may not talk about Bruno, but we have to start talking about this. Every day. Every hour. This needs to stop NOW. I'm open to any solution, any fix, any idea. As a former member of the 8th Grade Brainstorming Club at Norton Junior High, I know the rules of Brainstorming ideas. So let's go.

[bmw]

You can be tired all you want about constant reference to our founding fathers, but the Constitution is what it is. If you want things changed, that requires a Constitutional amendment. Your proposed solution should thus be a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. And btw - a federal court just last year found that people between the ages of 18 and 20 have rights under the 2nd Amendment. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/handgun-ba ... als-court/

As to a link for worldwide gun violence, here ya go:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

The US is #2 in total numbers, but not in the top 10 per-capita.

Matt - when do you propose this conversation take place? There have already been 27 school shootings in the US just in the past 5 months. That is more frequently than once a week. Also by your logic, we can also never actually discuss violent crime in Chicago, since it happens every single day on a continuous basis. Even -I- acknowledge that we have a problem. A BIG problem. No other country in the world is even close to us when it comes to school shootings. We are long overdue to figure out why that is.

[km1125]

....

there's lots of correlations between availability of things and people ending up dead. Take alcohol for instance. I'm sure there's a direct correlation between traffic fatalities and the availability of booze. But how well did prohibition turn out?

Prohibition was a failure. Raising the drinking age to 21 was not.

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/fil ... 11n2-8.pdf
(oh, the Cato Institute - see, some of us like to look at facts despite the perceived "political leanings" of the source.
....

Definitely could be on to something here. If the 18-21 year olds can't be trusted with alcohol or guns or even cigarettes, then perhaps they really can't be trusted with the power to vote either.

Probably should just keep them in high school for another couple years. Add a 13th and 14th year and maybe they'd be better prepared to enter society.

[bmw]

Per wikipedia, we've already had more school shootings between 2020 and now than we did even during the entire decade of 2000-2009. The spike began precisely in the year 2013.

I'd venture a guess that the rise of social media and the smart phone has something to do with this. Because bullying was just as rampant (if not moreso) and guns were just as readily available (if not moreso) for most of the 20th century compared to now. But shootings during that time were far, far fewer. There was somewhat of a rise beginning in the 1970s, but even the 2000s saw a drop compared to the 1990s.

I also wonder if kids today are less equiped to deal with bullying than they were even 20-30 years ago?

[Lester The Nightfly]

Nice (but worn out and predictable) bit of diversion. Blame it all on mental health, but by God don't spend any resources on it. Wait it out until another classroom of young children are slaughtered. Wash, Rince, Repeat.

[bmw]

Nice (but worn out and predictable) bit of diversion. Blame it all on mental health, but by God don't spend any resources on it. Wait it out until another classroom of young children are slaughtered. Wash, Rince, Repeat.

So why has mental health in this country deterioriated so much since 2012? You want to improve children's mental health? You don't have to spend a penny. Just as a parent don't give them a damn smart phone.

[Honeyman]

Okay, so it's not hate, it's mental health. Glad we got that cleared up.

Or is it the internet? Now I'm confused again.

But at least we know it's not guns. That's for sure!

[Lester The Nightfly]

Okay, so it's not hate, it's mental health. Glad we got that cleared up.

Or is it the internet? Now I'm confused again.

But at least we know it's not guns. That's for sure!

Nope, it's the fucking iPhones. Don't you know there were never any mass shooting prior to smartphones? Even Charles Witman knows that...

[Honeyman]

Okay, so it's not hate, it's mental health. Glad we got that cleared up.

Or is it the internet? Now I'm confused again.

But at least we know it's not guns. That's for sure!

Nope, it's the fucking iPhones. Don't you know there were never any mass shooting prior to smartphones? Even Charles Witman knows that...

That explains it! It was the iPhone!

However, I don't remember getting that breaking news in 1998 about Columbine on my phone.

Nah, I'm back to hate.