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WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Covers all of Northern Lower Michigan (from Ludington to Tawas northward), as well as the Straits Area and Soo Region.
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TC Talks
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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by TC Talks » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:51 pm

Tim Moore dreamed up the market parameters as a way to get under market 200 and get access to national ad buys back on the day. I believe Greenville "Triad" market is the only geographically larger.

When I ran stations in Colorado, we had the same trouble selling time in Vail for an Aspen station, yet most signals had simulcasts.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Deleted User 12047 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:19 pm

Someone who knows, but needs just a little help wrote:but, in order for ratings to be locally-relevant (IMO), the market needs to be split.
Ratings in a market like Traverse City/Petoskey will never be locally relevant. Markets are defined (as TC Talks explained) to make them as large as possible to attract national advertisers. I can remember markets like Fort Wayne due to population dropping from 98 to 101 and the resulting loss of revenue was painful.



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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Dr. Sandi » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:24 pm

Many Nielsen markets are too big for their signals. Northern Michigan is an egregious example.

On my most recent trip home to Motherland Michigan, I was chagrined that as I traveled from Houghton Lake to Traverse City. WUPS was mostly unlistenable on my Honda radio around TC despite their monster tower and full power signal. And yet, if you can believe what's left of the newest public Nielsens, WUPS is doing great in TC. Except that we all know it isn't. Yes, Eastlan might be a better answer if various station management people can agree that the market should not include all counties north of M-20 just to impress the girls or whoever.

I'm in a simiar situation with my FM.HD hybrids in Olymypa, Washington. It's an 'umbrella' market. The county is officially part of the Seattle/Tacoma Nielsen market. Most of the Seattle FMs are listenable in the car around Olympia despite low mountains and 60+ miles distance from Seattle's 2 major FM transmit sites.

So Thurston county is about 250,000 people in a market of 3.6 million. We have 3 local commercial broadcasters covering mostly Olympia and varying coverage of Tacoma, to the north. Every now and then, the sole Class C slips into the Seattle Nielsens, but it's very rare. Just like any single station in N. Mich, there's just not enough signal from Olympia into Seattle and the north suburbs.

Yes, I'm sure we could all agree to have Eastlan come in and survey just our 2 counties for a more accurate picture of listener choices, but I don't think management of all three local commercial stations has ever been in the same room at the same time. Herding cats comes to mind here.

Let's face it, ratings are not the be all and end all of radio sales. But they are a good tool if one can convince the people they're being used on to go along with the gag. Local conditions vary across the country, but the ratings have to have useful parameters or the buyers just plain will not take them seriously.

Olympia, WA and Traverse City/Petoskey/Cadillac share a common set of problems. Which is part of what keeps drawing me to read this board from 2000 miles away. We're, as they say, all in this together. Or apart too, I guess.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by TC Shuts Up » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:16 pm

$$$$$
Last edited by TC Shuts Up on Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Deleted User 12047 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:33 pm

Dr. Sandi wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:24 pm
if you can believe what's left of the newest public Nielsens, WUPS is doing great in TC.
Are we reading the same numbers? 1.5 share shows that they are NOT doing great. In fact, this very censored report shows that over 80% of actual radio listening is not listed - which means it's not subscribed. The total of the Black Diamond/Public stations listed is 19.5 - the rest of the Persons Using Radio are using other stations. And this is exclusive of satellite or streaming.. not counted as those persons are not considered "using radio".



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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Dr. Sandi » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:04 pm

Radio Sucks wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:33 pm
Dr. Sandi wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:24 pm
if you can believe what's left of the newest public Nielsens, WUPS is doing great in TC.
Are we reading the same numbers? 1.5 share shows that they are NOT doing great. In fact, this very censored report shows that over 80% of actual radio listening is not listed - which means it's not subscribed. The total of the Black Diamond/Public stations listed is 19.5 - the rest of the Persons Using Radio are using other stations. And this is exclusive of satellite or streaming.. not counted as those persons are not considered "using radio".
You know that. I know that. But does the average business person know that?

Stick the 'public' ratings in front of a potential advertiser who is not radio savvy and WUPS shows up with ratings, unlike a lot of other stations they might listen to that don't even show up on that chart. The public 12+ ratings are just about useless, but they can influence the general public. I guess if you don't pay, you don't show up and that's how Nielsen likes it.

But at least the folks at Black Diamond get to use the full Nielsen numbers in their presentations, even if nobody else can. Pay to play makes the day.

The reality is that it's the relationships that make the sales, not the Nielsens. So maybe if they go away, it's no big loss anyway.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Dr. Sandi » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:23 pm

TC Shuts Up wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:16 pm
A lot of the signal problems you describe are terrain related. Traverse City is buffeted by ranges of hills, as are most "coastal" cities. They can only be well served from the top of a nearby terrain ridge/range, across a Bay, or from in the city proper. WHGR-FM/WJGS/WUPS does well at high elevations, but cuts out as you get near the shoreline in every direction . Boosters may work in some cases, but unless researched extensively, will result in self interference fringes. The rigid distance separation requirements were made to "simplify" allotments, but we would have been better off with the system of contour overlap requirements which were used before the Table of Allotments and Separation Requirements, which continue on NCE-FM and in Canada. There are so many classes (3 kW grandfathered A, 6 kW A, C4*, C3, C2, C1, CO, C, B1, B), which in some cases provide better options, but they continue to protect second and third allotments to receiver standards for radios used in the 1960s. The translators of various types have exacerbated problems with costal signals from inland transmitters. In many cases, the rules have been used to exclude new stations that adequately serve denser population areas. "First Local Service" has also been used and often abused to limit competition in more densely populated areas. We would be better served by moving these from the middle of nowhere in many cases.

*Proposed Class C4, 12 kW/100 meters.
Yeah, I know. I have done the FCC tech filings for a few dozen stations in this area.

Same situation around Seattle but worse, with the taller terrain of the coast mountains and the steep cliffs around the Puget Sound. We're in a similar situation, except that there's a much bigger monster loose at the heart of my 'market' that makes the competiton a little tougher. But the similarities outnumber the differences.

First Local Service station move-in abuse cost me some decent translator channels over the past decade. FCC has put a plug into that by requiring FM move ins to keep their 60 dBu signal out of at least half on any metro market they want to sleaze into. About 15 years late, but it's a start. It keeps at least a few exurb stations from disappearing into a city 60 miles away.

Now, a sharp engineering consultant has to find a good TX site where the moved station puts less than 60 dBu over the desired metro using the bogus FCC Propagation Charts, but with a really nice Longley-Rice signal across most or all of the market. A sneak rim shot.

Works best when you have some really high terrain right up the radial on the opposite side of the town you're trying to sneak into. Kind of like lining up a combination pool shot.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by BigFreq » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:26 pm

Dr. Sandi wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:04 pm
Radio Sucks wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:33 pm
Dr. Sandi wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:24 pm
if you can believe what's left of the newest public Nielsens, WUPS is doing great in TC.
Are we reading the same numbers? 1.5 share shows that they are NOT doing great. In fact, this very censored report shows that over 80% of actual radio listening is not listed - which means it's not subscribed. The total of the Black Diamond/Public stations listed is 19.5 - the rest of the Persons Using Radio are using other stations. And this is exclusive of satellite or streaming.. not counted as those persons are not considered "using radio".
You know that. I know that. But does the average business person know that?

Stick the 'public' ratings in front of a potential advertiser who is not radio savvy and WUPS shows up with ratings, unlike a lot of other stations they might listen to that don't even show up on that chart. The public 12+ ratings are just about useless, but they can influence the general public. I guess if you don't pay, you don't show up and that's how Nielsen likes it.

But at least the folks at Black Diamond get to use the full Nielsen numbers in their presentations, even if nobody else can. Pay to play makes the day.

The reality is that it's the relationships that make the sales, not the Nielsens. So maybe if they go away, it's no big loss anyway.

Actually, one subscriber makes for a vulnerable subscriber... as every single company can justify that Black Diamond paid for that data, and the only way that data will keep coming is if there is money coming into Nielsen troughs.. and the only way the money comes, as if favorable results come with it. :blink Deliver a poor book, and the ratings disappear. Black Diamond is the only subscriber under contract, while the rest didn't renew (or in the case of Blarney Stone, likely didn't pay the bill). It negates the value of the ratings; even for the novice client. For a savvy local client, they will see beyond and recognize it will boil down to rate, relationship... and leveraging a cluster. Having come from the agency world... ratings only justify things when you want them to, as you're buying a demo. If something looks out of whack, then perhaps you pass. It's a guide, not a definitive answer. And, as far as Olympia, WA, goes, I'm sure most people in WA state couldn't even tell you what county it's in, as only King and Pierce matter on the west side of the state. At least Grays Harbor County bore Nirvana. :blink



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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Dr. Sandi » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:48 pm

At least Grays Harbor County bore Nirvana. :blink
Grays Harbor County bored Nirvana to DEATH. Kurt had to get out of that going nowhere place as soon as he could afford bus fare.

Awful area. Grey skies, grey buildings, grey people. Even the meth is grey. Northern Michigan winters are awful, but unlike the Washington Coast, at least there are SEASONS.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by BigFreq » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:42 am

Dr. Sandi wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:48 pm
At least Grays Harbor County bore Nirvana. :blink
Grays Harbor County bored Nirvana to DEATH. Kurt had to get out of that going nowhere place as soon as he could afford bus fare.

Awful area. Grey skies, grey buildings, grey people. Even the meth is grey. Northern Michigan winters are awful, but unlike the Washington Coast, at least there are SEASONS.
Truer words were never spoken. Aberdeen... ugh. BTW, back to Oly... could you imagine anywhere in Michigan where a single Evergreen State student might fit in? :lol: :lol: :lol:



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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by BigFreq » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:46 am

TC Talks wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:51 pm
Tim Moore dreamed up the market parameters as a way to get under market 200 and get access to national ad buys back on the day. I believe Greenville "Triad" market is the only geographically larger.
So what you're saying is that Tim must have found a bigger word in his thesaurus to justify and match the size of the metro. :lol:



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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by TC Talks » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:21 am

BigFreq wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:46 am
TC Talks wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:51 pm
Tim Moore dreamed up the market parameters as a way to get under market 200 and get access to national ad buys back on the day. I believe Greenville "Triad" market is the only geographically larger.
So what you're saying is that Tim must have found a bigger word in his thesaurus to justify and match the size of the metro. :lol:
He was a short man with a big head. When you consider what they had a stand alone station billing, it was a great move.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Dr. Sandi » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:57 pm

BigFreq wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:42 am
Dr. Sandi wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:48 pm
At least Grays Harbor County bore Nirvana. :blink
Grays Harbor County bored Nirvana to DEATH. Kurt had to get out of that going nowhere place as soon as he could afford bus fare.

Awful area. Grey skies, grey buildings, grey people. Even the meth is grey. Northern Michigan winters are awful, but unlike the Washington Coast, at least there are SEASONS.
Truer words were never spoken. Aberdeen... ugh. BTW, back to Oly... could you imagine anywhere in Michigan where a single Evergreen State student might fit in? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Probably on a 'special' bus somewhere in Ann Arbor.

Oly market is very polarized. We have the 'Greeners' on the west, government drones in all directions from the capitol with active and retired military on the east, closer to the fort. So the local stations don't say a lot about political stuff out of pure self-preservation. Except for the Evergreen campus station, which has carte blanche on their brand.


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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Ben Zonia » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:01 pm

Image


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

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Re: WTCM-FM 103.5, etc.

Post by Dr. Sandi » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:35 pm

That's the guys, Ben.

I believe they also bedeviled Maxwell Smart.


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