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TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Covers all of Northern Lower Michigan (from Ludington to Tawas northward), as well as the Straits Area and Soo Region.
Nelson
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TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by Nelson » Thu May 06, 2021 3:29 pm

Came across an LPTV construction permit for W31FA-D, channel 31, for a tower in Harbor Springs:
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/datae ... 7&goBack=N

There's also an application for W27DQ-D, channel 27, on the same tower.

Anyone know what's actually in the works? Is 9&10 trying to fill a hole in their coverage area?



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Ben Zonia
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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by Ben Zonia » Thu May 06, 2021 5:21 pm

The Little Traverse Bay Area next to Lake Michigan certainly gets a lot of shadowing from the ski ridges and the other ridges parallel to them. Two translators could certainly fill in the shadows from 4(16), 8, 10, 45(21) and their associated subchannels.

All show "2Edge", not Line Of Sight, propagation near the shoreline of Lake Michigan.


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MWmetalhead
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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by MWmetalhead » Thu May 06, 2021 6:15 pm

Excellent find!

I think it's a terrific idea for TV 9&10 to use that site to translate CBS and FOX programming. Petoskey is quite a hike from Goetzville and is terrain shadowed relative to the Vanderbilt site, and Charlevoix probably has similar if not bigger challenges when it comes to OTA reception.

Tough to say which signal will actually serve as the feeder signal, but it really doesn't matter, as I believe WWTV, WFUP, and WWUP all show both CBS and FOX programming, as I recall.


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Ben Zonia
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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by Ben Zonia » Thu May 06, 2021 6:43 pm

Looks to be on the WMKC/WCMW tower. If there are two translators serving pretty much the same area, I don't see why all networks couldn't be carried on the two translators. They appear to be different owners.

If you put in Depot Ct. Petoskey, MI into TVFool at 30 feet, NO signals are sufficient for the indoor and attic antenna zones. Each time the signal goes over an "edge", a large portion of the signal doesn't get past it, and the second "edge" would further attenuate it. FMFool shows how high your antenna would have to be to get out of the terrain hole. I'll try it with FMFool to see how deep the terrain hole is.

Well, WGFM and WTLI are in about a 180 foot terrain hole there, WCHY and WWMK are in a 400 foot terrain hole, and WCML and WPHN are in the 500 foot terrain hole range. Only the Harbor Springs Good Hart transmitter areas are LOS into Petoskey. Even the transmitters SE of Petoskey, WBCM and WLXT, are in a 100 foot terrain hole.

So I'd have to conclude that the Translators are a good idea. Cable and Dish keeps getting more and more expensive, and why not get an antenna instead of paying for several extra cable boxes with incompatible remotes in each room? Cable "penetration" percentages" don't tell the whole story.
Last edited by Ben Zonia on Thu May 06, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by MWmetalhead » Thu May 06, 2021 6:53 pm

Good info; thanks.

Out of curiosity, how does Charlevoix compare?


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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by Ben Zonia » Thu May 06, 2021 7:07 pm

Have to work outside before sundown. I will look later.


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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by Ben Zonia » Thu May 06, 2021 8:19 pm

WFUP, WPBN, and WGTU are LOS. After that, the signals fall off a cliff. All 2Edge, next one, WCML, is 35 dB down from WGTU. Enter Pine River Ln. Charlevoix, MI 30 feet to TVFool.

This demonstrates that when you have multiple transmitters, it depends on which side of the hill or hills you are on which one is usable and which isn't usable.


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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by statmanmi » Fri May 07, 2021 4:45 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 6:53 pm
...
Out of curiosity, how does Charlevoix compare?
Hi MW,

I'll offer insight on your question first--then even more to the entire audience about the various FCC filings related to this one.

Regarding Charlevoix reception, I've installed TV antennas for 2 families (one first cousin, and one close friend). Both successfully receive all expected stations:

* CBS and Fox in HD via the WFUP tower on Hudson Lookout (eastern Charlevoix county; identified on air as Vanderbilt, and is between Vanderbilt and Boyne Falls). Also has several SD diginets, including MeTV and LAFF.
* NBC, ABC, and PBS (all 3 in HD) from the Kalkaska tower with the shared antenna on top "owned" by WGTU that transmits the 3 full-power broadcasts from WGTU, WPBN, and WCMV. Only a couple more subchannels from here thus far.

It wasn't too tough gaining successful signals. The one home is "in town" between the airport and hospital (so close to lake elevation), and a Clearstream 4 high up inside the garage rafters pointed straight south works well. The other is at higher elevation SE from town, and has a Clearstream 2MAX on the previous dish pole in the side yard.

One cool thing about Charlevoix and that area is that there's no VHF signals needed...so no dipole elements required out horizontally for a yard or so--just the figure 8s that the Clearstream aerials have.

See my next post about these LPTV filings.

Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi
Last edited by statmanmi on Fri May 07, 2021 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by statmanmi » Fri May 07, 2021 5:27 pm

Ben Zonia wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 6:43 pm
Looks to be on the WMKC/WCMW tower. If there are two translators serving pretty much the same area, I don't see why all networks couldn't be carried on the two translators. They appear to be different owners.
It's not just the 2 LPTV filings for Harbor Springs/Elmhurst that the Iacobelli family is acquiring from the "RF squatters" that held the construction permits.

From this FCC filing and others, I've seen 10 LPTV construction permits noted: https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/datae ... d&goBack=N

Plus there have been filings to relocate these to various towers. The summary is (listed from south to north):

* Intended from the WWTV tower on Mt. Dighton (which is just barely 30 miles from the cell phone tower that was previously cited by the holder of the original construction permits that brought about the Houghton Lake label):
W15DF-D HOUGHTON LAKE, MI
W38EZ-D HOUGHTON LAKE, MI

* Intended for the tower by Traverse City that has the WWTV DRT (digital replacement translator):
W16DN-D TRAVERSE CITY, MI
W27DU-D TRAVERSE CITY, MI

* Intended from the WFUP tower on Hudson Lookout (Charlevoix County, identified on air as Vanderbilt):
W22EL-D VANDERBILT, MI
W20DT-D VANDERBILT, MI

* Intended from the Harbor Springs radio tower with FM stations WMKC/WCMW as Ben Zonia mentioned):
W38FO-D ELMHURST, MI (Now W31FA-D, as noted in the link provided by Ben Zonia above.)
W27DQ-D ELMHURST, MI

* Intended from the WWUP tower, referenced as Goetzville, MI:
W30DQ-D CHARLES, MI
W28EJ-D CHARLES, MI

Note that the 10 here are pending purchase by Val Vista RV Park, which is the Iacobelli family, just like Heritage Broadcasting. Worth mentioning is that a few months ago the FCC filing came through and was approved that had Mr. Mario Iacobelli relinquish all ownership to his (adult) son Mr. Peter Iacobelli and (adult) daughter Ms. Jeanne Crockett.

As with the one Harbor Springs station ID reference, some others will change when their frequency revisions are approved--since only TV frequencies 36 and below are now used after the FCC "Repack" that gave frequencies 38 and above up for cell phone use.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My personal best guess as an aficionado is that some of these will be used for ATSC 3.0 Nextgen TV broadcasts. Maybe all of them, since a more robust Nextgen signal can reach further when it's given more bandwidth within the transmission, because more error correction can be included. (Sidebar thought: To see an example of the robustness, search out on YouTube this week's post by Antenna Man, who visited Pittsburgh and documented Nextgen reception.)

By piecing together the Harbor Springs location's expected coverage, with the reaches from each of the other 4 sites I've sumarized above, it'll come close to covering via LPTV much of the current market coverage achieved via the existing full service/full power WWTV/WFUP/WWTV signals. (I don't list WFQX here, because even when the approved construction permit is acted upon, the new estimated coverage area will still be slightly smaller than WWTV's from the same tower.)

Man, I really do geek out on watching the FCC filings (via website fcc.today, primarily), don't I? Hopefully you're entertained by reading the above.

Enjoy! ~~ Statmanmi



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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by Nelson » Fri May 07, 2021 8:05 pm

Thanks for the detail and research!



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MWmetalhead
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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat May 08, 2021 7:38 am

Agreed! Thanks for the insightful info, statmanmi!


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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by statmanmi » Wed May 12, 2021 1:21 pm

You're welcome All!

The FCC approved all filings related to these 10 LPTVs on Monday. Link: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments ... 2377A1.pdf

Eight are being purchased from CTB SPECTRUM SERVICES TWO, LLC, and two from LANDOVER 2 LLC. (Note: Unrelated to the Charter Spectrum Cable company.) A decade ago these related companies filed for LPTV construction permits all around the US, as per this archive article Google found me: https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ctb-s ... e-lptv-cps They honestly ended up being just "RF squatters", since if they built out any of their permits, it was only a handful, per what I've read on other sites.


But these should end up being seen through to construction, as apparently the FCC requested an affirmation of such intents. Some of the recent filings include a letter signed by Mr. Peter Iacobelli pledging such.

Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi



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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by ftballfan » Thu May 13, 2021 7:38 pm

I watched AntennaMan's video on Pittsburgh NextGen and he was able to decode WPNT's ATSC 3.0 signal in Cresson, which is about halfway between Altoona and Johnstown



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Re: TV 9&10 Harbor Springs Translator?

Post by BirdieKingBobo » Wed May 26, 2021 7:25 pm

Not sure, but Bill Froelich makes me mental....



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