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WLAV Tower Relocation

Discussion pertaining to Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Battle Creek, Big Rapids, and Michiana
CK-722
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by CK-722 » Fri May 03, 2019 7:42 am

MWmetalhead wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:11 am
I doubt 97.3 WDEE or 97.3 WMJO could move much if at all; ditto 96.9 Standish, 96.5 DeWitt, 96.5 Portage and 96.7 Albion. That part of the FM dial is very crowded.

It appears under a certain FCC regulation (Section 73.3517?) that the 60 dBu contours of WLAV-FM and WLAW are not permitted to overlap. One wonders why Cumulus just doesn't apply for a waiver for 97.5 WLAW?

Perhaps these recent filings help explain Cumulus' decision to move the Sunny AC format from 97.5 MHz to 92.5 MHz?
I'll accept that as a challenge. Here. Hold my Caribou Blend. I'm a gonna find a squeeze in allotment or upgrade if it takes me all day. I've opened a few opportunities myself. Don't tell anybody or they'll steal them. And for goodness sakes, don't send the information to the Cluster Office FAX at G-3338.

Hmmm. Can Cumulus get WLUN back by moving back to Whitefeather Rd.?


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ftballfan
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by ftballfan » Fri May 03, 2019 6:04 pm

CK-722 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:42 am
MWmetalhead wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:11 am
I doubt 97.3 WDEE or 97.3 WMJO could move much if at all; ditto 96.9 Standish, 96.5 DeWitt, 96.5 Portage and 96.7 Albion. That part of the FM dial is very crowded.

It appears under a certain FCC regulation (Section 73.3517?) that the 60 dBu contours of WLAV-FM and WLAW are not permitted to overlap. One wonders why Cumulus just doesn't apply for a waiver for 97.5 WLAW?

Perhaps these recent filings help explain Cumulus' decision to move the Sunny AC format from 97.5 MHz to 92.5 MHz?
I'll accept that as a challenge. Here. Hold my Caribou Blend. I'm a gonna find a squeeze in allotment or upgrade if it takes me all day. I've opened a few opportunities myself. Don't tell anybody or they'll steal them. And for goodness sakes, don't send the information to the Cluster Office FAX at G-3338.

Hmmm. Can Cumulus get WLUN back by moving back to Whitefeather Rd.?
LAV moving permanently to GVSU might allow 96.9 Standish to upgrade from 3kW to 6kW.

Also, 97.5 is blocked from moving much by WDEE, WMLQ, and WKLT



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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by Arthur Mometer » Fri May 03, 2019 7:33 pm

CMU doesn't need a higher power translator in Sterling.


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CK-722
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by CK-722 » Sun May 05, 2019 4:23 am

CK-722 wrote:
I'll accept that as a challenge.
Found one possible upgrade. Looking for more.


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CK-722
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by CK-722 » Tue May 07, 2019 3:03 pm

Found another possible upgrade contingent on move. Haven't found a possible new allotment. Like you say, it's too jammed up to find too many possible upgrades.

I won't tell anybody, but are you sure you don't want to try harder near the old site?


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MWmetalhead
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by MWmetalhead » Tue May 07, 2019 7:11 pm

They have next to zero chance getting site approval to build a new tower in Ada Twp. I assumed they would've at least given it a shot in nearby Cannon Twp. My guess is Cumulus doesn't want to deal with the permitting process nor the cost of constructing a new broadcast tower from scratch.


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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by audiophile » Tue May 07, 2019 9:41 pm

Cumulus is making a grave mistake.


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CK-722
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by CK-722 » Tue May 07, 2019 10:50 pm

audiophile wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:41 pm
Cumulus is making a grave mistake.
At the very least, I would license the new facility, and immediately file an APP for something close to the old site, hopefully investigating a new site in the meantime. Unless you do extreme diligence on a DA, your'e going to lose something. WHNN's DA *MIGHT* be an exception. Sometimes a panel antenna will serve the areas you want to with a maximum ERP in each direction you want to serve. But every case is different.


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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by MWmetalhead » Wed May 08, 2019 6:53 am

Cumulus is making a grave mistake.
How so?


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CK-722
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by CK-722 » Wed May 08, 2019 7:37 am

WLAV-FM had arguably the third best Commercial FM facility in Grand Rapids. Canada uses an "Average" ERP for DAs instead of the Maximum ERP in any direction. That would probably be in the vicinity of 22 kW for this DA. That makes it more apparent. I'll try to post a copy of the pattern. But keep in mind that the pattern is an "envelope" around the real measured pattern of the DA. If you ever see the measured lab patterns, you'll see what we mean. The real pattern is often a grotesque looking approximation. And that's the maximum of the H or V ERP that is plotted. As Larry Langford, Jr. alluded to, and he has an FM DA in South Bend, FM BC DA Design is kind of like sausage making in that you really don't want to know what happens in the Lab and Testing Range. The late great Bill Sanderson tried to get the 6 kW DA for WWBN so that it would cover Flint better from the Millington. The best they could do was 5.4 kW Vertical, less Horizontal. The best direction proof wise was 6 kW toward Saginaw, and it was nearly Circular Polarization. This was shown to be true, as it had a very good signal toward Saginaw. But the Tri Cities needed another marginal rim shot signal like they needed another hole in the head.

https://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq? ... =W&size=9t

Here's a less official but better link.

Image

https://www.fccdata.org/?facid=&call=WL ... =&lang=enC

Click the Antenna System ID.

Keep in mind that the real pattern is even smaller and more oddly shaped.

If you take the pattern and see which scale circle would match the area, you can determine the "Average" ERP like Canada uses. So if it looks like the 0.7 Relative Field circle matches the area, square 0.7 and multiply by 43 kW and you get about 21 kW. Keep in mind that the real area might match, say the 0.6 circle, which would give you 0.36 times 43 which would be 15.5 kW "average". You can get really technical and do a calculation of the RMS of the pattern, but that's not necessary to demonstrate the point. And the real sad thing is that the artificial ownership rules made them move another facility and lower it's height.


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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by MWmetalhead » Wed May 08, 2019 6:10 pm

I certainly understand a lot less ground will be covered from the APP site than the LIC site, but let's consider the following:
- Ada Twp (likely) won't approve a new tower;
- Who knows if nearby Cannon Twp would be willing to approve a new tower;
- The State Police evidently won't allow any commercial radio stations on its existing 489 ft tower;
- The WFUR / WJRW land has environmental issues, and evidently, geological integrity issues;
- The only other tall FM-worthy tower within 10 miles of the LIC site is owned by Townsquare (a direct competitor).
- Waiting for a new tower to (a) be approved and (b) be constructed would be a very time consuming and costly process.
- There's no reason why Cumulus/WLAV still couldn't pursue a return to central Kent County some day. I don't see any doom & gloom scenarios playing out with regard to moves involving stations in distant areas. Heck, if they choose, they can file an APP as soon as the GVSU site is licensed, right?

The WKLQ site is about 5 miles further away from downtown GR and delivers a blisteringly strong signal to downtown Grand Rapids.

The Holy Family Radio translator, which uses the WTLJ tower (right down the street from the WGVU tower), with just 250 watts can be heard quite reliably as far east as Cascade & Ada Twp. and places a pretty rock solid signal into downtown Grand Rapids. I realize the WLAV antenna will be mounted about 370 feet lower, but with > 40 kW being sent eastward, the signal strength across the immediate GR area should be pretty damn good.

I've always liked the coverage footprint of the WKLQ tower near Zeeland. When WCEN-FM was operating at greatly reduced power nearly 20 years ago due to lightning damage, that station came in clear as a bell as far north as Stanwood and almost as far east as Portland. When WGVU was analog, with a really crappy UHF antenna connected to the back of the TV, I could pick up a snowy but viewable signal as far away as Hardy Dam.

Line of sight from the WGVU site is good in the direction of Kalamazoo & Battle Creek. WKFR comes in surprisingly well near the GVSU campus. There won't be enough field strength sent toward those two cities to facilitate routine listening among the public in those areas, but I bet WLAV's signal in Kalamazoo after the move will be only slightly worse than it was when the LIC site was still in use.

About 70% of the MSA's households will receive a predicted city grade signal from the WGVU site. Places such as Hudsonville, Jenison, and Grand Haven will see a stronger signal than they ever saw from the Ada Twp site. Eastern and northern portions of Kent County will obviously see a drop off, especially near Lowell, but the station should be pretty easy to tune in still.

Places such as Ionia & Montcalm County will see the biggest drop off in signal, but those two counties are not included in the MSA, and whenever someone from those two counties purchases air time on Grand Rapids radio(such as a car dealership), they are primarily targeting Metro GR listeners - not local listeners.

WLAV will probably become a very difficult listen in the Portland and Grand Ledge areas once this move happens, but 94.9 WMMQ from Lansing offers similar programming. Lately, I do like the LAV playlist better than the MMQ playlist, which seems to be stuck in neutral.


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CK-722
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Re: WLAV Tower Relocation

Post by CK-722 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:49 am

In the past, there was a rule that if you had a transmitting site that was peculiarly suited to broadcast stations, the owner, even a competing signal, had to make the site available to competitors. Based on what you said, the (I still want to call it the WZZM-FM or WZZR tower) WLHT/WFGR site is so peculiarly situated. I'm not sure if or when that regulation was removed. If they used a diplex, it would be just like a lot of diplexes owned by competing owners, especially in larger markets. Money talks too, and sharing that site and costs might be mutually advantageous. Cumulus and Townsquare were cooperating on cluster ownership spin offs in the past, like Lansing going from Cumulus to Townsquare. Many AM diplexes are owned by direct competitors, like WNBC and WCBS used to be, and FMs like WLS-FM and WBBM-FM. And of course Empire, Hancock, and Sears by any other names. I think WDVD (Cumulus) and WYCD (CBS) diplex.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

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