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Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

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bmw
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Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 am

So here's the story as I understand it: an 84-year-old woman was out collecting signatures for some kind of anti-Prop 3 petition, and she shows up around 1:30 in the afternoon at a 74-year-old man's home in Odessa TWP (between Lansing and Grand Rapids). While it is unclear exactly what led to the shooting, 2 shots were fired - one as a "warning" shot and a second as an "accidental discharge" when the guy was trying to use his gun to knock her clipboard out of her hand. Here is an excerpt from the 911 call that his wife made right after the incident:
Some lady over here wouldn't leave my property, and she should be arrested. She drove on my grass. She's trying to get me to sign a petition, and I won't do it. And I told her to get off my property, and she wouldn't go. My husband nicked her with a gun.
Now I find that call fascinating. Her husband has just "nicked" an old lady with a gun, and her primary concern when calling 911 isn't to get medical help for this old lady, but rather to have her arrested because she "drove on my grass" and "wouldn't leave."

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/harve ... d/1089969/

Sounds to me like this guy and his wife are both a couple of nutjobs, and it is amazing that he only faces up to 4 years in prison. EVEN IF the lady collecting signatures was borderline obnoxious or wouldn't leave (come on, she's 84, she's probably just slow), you don't fire a "warning shot" and then use your gun to try to knock her clipboard out of her hand. And according to the couple, this lady collecting signatures was allegedly waving her clipboard around, trying to hit the wife. Yeah, I'm not buying that, at all. This guy should be spending more than 4 years behind bars, IMO.



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TC Talks
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:40 am

Given that she is with a group well known for murder and violence, was asked to leave and she didn't, he made a reasonable decision. Stand your ground is a stupid law, but it's the law. At her age, she should have known better...

Here's just a taste of what this organization is capable of doing....
CRIMINAL
In 2021, a defendant pled guilty to a FACE Act violation and other state felony offenses for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Fort Myers, Florida, abortion clinic.

In 2021, a defendant pled guilty for damaging a Newark, Delaware, abortion clinic. The defendant threw a Molotov cocktail at the facility and vandalized it with spray paint.

In 2020, a defendant pled guilty and was sentenced to two years imprisonment for FACE Act related offenses in connection with a bomb threat call the defendant made to a Jacksonville, Florida, abortion clinic.

In 2019, a defendant was indicted for FACE Act violations and other federal offenses related to a 2015 shooting at a Planned Parenthood facility in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The defendant traveled to the facility and shot at several civilians, killing two and injuring three others. He then forced his way into the clinic where staff and patients hid. During a stand-off with the police, the defendant shot at police, killing one officer and injuring several others. The defendant also shot a civilian who was sheltering in place. The case is currently pending in federal district court.

In 2019, a defendant pled guilty to federal offenses, including a FACE Act violation, for causing damage to a reproductive health care clinic in Columbia, Missouri. The defendant threw a Molotov cocktail through the front door of a Planned Parenthood clinic. The defendant was sentenced to five years imprisonment.

In 2018, a defendant directed a threatening social media post to Planned Parenthood facilities and staff. The defendant plead guilty to federal offenses, including a FACE Act charge, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment.

A defendant was charged with FACE Act and other federal offenses for sending several threatening emails in 2017 to abortion clinics located in Chicago, Illinois, and Hammond, Indiana. The defendant pled guilty and was sentenced to 18 months imprisonment.

A defendant pled guilty to committing a FACE Act violation and another related federal offense for making several threatening telephone calls to an Anchorage, Alaska, area reproductive health care clinic in 2016. The defendant had made a death threat and a bomb threat. The defendant was sentenced to probation.

In 2016, two defendants were charged with FACE Act violations for vandalizing a Baltimore, Maryland, area abortion clinic on two separate occasions. One defendant pled guilty and the other was convicted at trial. Both defendants were sentenced to probation and ordered to pay restitution.

A defendant pled guilty to FACE Act violations for making telephonic death threats in 2014 to two Minneapolis, Minnesota, reproductive health care clinics. The defendant was sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

An Indiana defendant was convicted and sentenced to probation for committing a FACE Act violation in 2013. The defendant broke into a Bloomington, Indiana, Planned Parenthood clinic and caused extensive damage. The defendant was ordered to pay restitution for the damage caused.
A defendant was convicted and sentenced to probation for a FACE Act violation. The defendant was charged in 2012 for calling a Virginia OBGYN practice and making a bomb threat because the OBGYN practice offered abortion services.

In 2012, a defendant was convicted by a jury of FACE Act and federal arson charges for setting fire to a Planned Parenthood facility located in Grand Chute, Wisconsin. The defendant was sentenced to a total of 11 years imprisonment.

A defendant pled guilty to a FACE Act violation and other federal charges for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Madera, California, and other offenses committed in 2011. The defendant was sentenced to a period of incarceration and ordered to pay restitution.
https://www.justice.gov/crt/recent-case ... -providers


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
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bmw
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:44 am

TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:40 am
Given that she is with a group well known for murder and violence, was asked to leave and she didn't, he made a reasonable decision. Stand your ground is a stupid law, but it's the law.
You must have the IQ of a houseplant. Are you suggesting that there's evidence to show that this man believed that this 84-year-old woman posed a threat to his or his wife's life?

I'm just going to sit here and laugh at your stupidity :lol :lol In all seriousness, your suggestion that this 84-year-old with a clipboard, pen, and paper, on someone's front porch collecting signatures, posed a threat to the homeowner's and his wife's life may literally be the dumbest thing I've ever read here or in any other internet forum :rollin



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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:47 am

bmw wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:44 am
TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:40 am
Given that she is with a group well known for murder and violence, was asked to leave and she didn't, he made a reasonable decision. Stand your ground is a stupid law, but it's the law.
You must have the IQ of a houseplant. Are you suggesting that there's evidence to show that this man believed that this 84-year-old woman posed a threat to his or his wife's life?
Well according to the law that's not up to you or I to make that judgment.

You do have to accept that the anti-abortion community is well known for violence and therefore should be treated with caution. Many of the acts of violence were done by people over 70.

You're defending a bad team here.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

bmw
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:49 am

We're talking about an 84 year-old woman with a clipboard and a pen and paper! The homeowner isn't alleging she had any kind of weapon. His allegation is literally that she wouldn't leave and that she was "waving" her clipboard around. Even if true, none of this rises to anywhere near the level of being a threat that would invoke stand-your-ground.



bmw
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:51 am

TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:47 am
You're defending a bad team here.
I'm defending an 84-year-old woman with a clipboard, pen, and paper who was shot in the shoulder while attempting to collect a petition signature on someone's front porch. The fact that you're defending this man's actions speaks VOLUMES to your personal character and the degree to which you are a leftist hack.

The next time a Jehova's Witness shows up at my doorstep with literature, is it cool with you if I fire a warning shot and then shoot him in the shoulder if he doesn't leave fast enough? I'll be honest - I don't like it when anybody from any group asks for my signature for anything - even if I support their cause. But my first course of action isn't to go get my shotgun, fire a warning shot, and use the gun to knock their paper out of their hands. Even absent the accidental discharge of the second shot, this would STILL be aggravated assault, and the fact that you can't see this for what it is, well, I don't know what else to even say here.



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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:59 am

Well, the guy blew it.

A) He shot her while she was walking away
B) He told msp that it was an accident

If he had told the police he felt threatened this would be an entirely different case. She was waving at him threateningly. I have no problem with canvasing and I've done it myself. But given this organizations history with violence I would treat this woman as I would the proud boys or other violent group.

I don't see her age has anything to do with this. The guy with the gun was 74. In my opinion the oldest activists amongst us are the greatest threat.
Harvey, 74, told WOOD-TV that he shot Jacobson accidentally while she was arguing with his wife, and that he told Jacobson numerous times to leave their property.

Harvey told the television station that he fired a warning shot at a tree with his wife’s .22-caliber rifle. He said the woman continued “ranting and raving” and waving a clipboard.
We had a anti-abortion canvaser in my area last week. We removed her from our private property. We allow politicians to canvas, but not fringe groups.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

bmw
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:11 pm

You're off your rocker and completely out of touch with reality on this one. The alleged waving of the clipboard occurred AFTER he fired his so-called warning shot. The warning shot in and of itself, given the proximity he was to her, would be considered a threat of deadly force, at which point, it was the 84-year-old woman who would have reasonably feared for her life.

Also, I don't know where you're getting that he shot her while she was walking away. It sounds to me like he shot her while using the barrel of his gun to try to knock the clipboard out of her hand. Nevertheless, just based on what I've read of the incident, a jury would have laughed him out of a courtroom if he claimed he felt his life was in danger.

It is a shame there wasn't some kind of doorbell video or other security video of this incident.
Last edited by bmw on Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.



bmw
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:15 pm

TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:59 am
We had a anti-abortion canvaser in my area last week. We removed her from our private property.
Was she a threat to your life? Did you shoot her in the shoulder with a shotgun?



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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:20 pm

This is an AP story... She was walking away.
The canvasser, Joan Jacobson, told investigators that she was asking a woman at the home to vote against Proposal 3 in November when she was told to leave. Jacobson told The Detroit News for a story Thursday that she was headed to her car when she “heard a shot” and “felt some pain.”


If Joan was a black male, 23 years old, and canvassing for Prop 2, you absolutely wouldn't have posted this. I missed your input when the police shot an innocent woman in her own apartment. This story only matters because you are supportive of this quasi terrorist community.

Do you condem the dozens of murders and arsonists that act on behalf of your organization? You're trying to have it both ways here...


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:21 pm

bmw wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:15 pm
TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:59 am
We had a anti-abortion canvaser in my area last week. We removed her from our private property.
Was she a threat to your life? Did you shoot her in the shoulder with a shotgun?
She didn't present a theat and left quietly. She was younger and more reasonable.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

bmw
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Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:02 am

Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:38 pm

This is where you're going to play the hypocrisy card? :lol

You called the following action "reckless" and warranting of further gun control measures:
A 46-year-old Rapid City man is in protective custody after being seen dancing with a handgun on southbound US-131, according to the Michigan State Police Department. On Tuesday, Wexford County Central Dispatch received several 911 calls about the man dancing naked with a gun around mile marker 187 in Wexford County. MSP said the man manually emptied ammunition in front of witnesses who were on the line with dispatch.
Yet here, you called shooting an unarmed 84-year-old woman walking away "a reasonable decision," implying that the reasonableness of the decision is rooted in the fact that this woman was working for a pro-life organization.



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craig11152
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by craig11152 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:04 pm

TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:40 am
Given that she is with a group well known for murder and violence, was asked to leave and she didn't, he made a reasonable decision. Stand your ground is a stupid law, but it's the law. At her age, she should have known better...

Here's just a taste of what this organization is capable of doing....
CRIMINAL
In 2021, a defendant pled guilty to a FACE Act violation and other state felony offenses for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Fort Myers, Florida, abortion clinic.

In 2021, a defendant pled guilty for damaging a Newark, Delaware, abortion clinic. The defendant threw a Molotov cocktail at the facility and vandalized it with spray paint.

In 2020, a defendant pled guilty and was sentenced to two years imprisonment for FACE Act related offenses in connection with a bomb threat call the defendant made to a Jacksonville, Florida, abortion clinic.

In 2019, a defendant was indicted for FACE Act violations and other federal offenses related to a 2015 shooting at a Planned Parenthood facility in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The defendant traveled to the facility and shot at several civilians, killing two and injuring three others. He then forced his way into the clinic where staff and patients hid. During a stand-off with the police, the defendant shot at police, killing one officer and injuring several others. The defendant also shot a civilian who was sheltering in place. The case is currently pending in federal district court.

In 2019, a defendant pled guilty to federal offenses, including a FACE Act violation, for causing damage to a reproductive health care clinic in Columbia, Missouri. The defendant threw a Molotov cocktail through the front door of a Planned Parenthood clinic. The defendant was sentenced to five years imprisonment.

In 2018, a defendant directed a threatening social media post to Planned Parenthood facilities and staff. The defendant plead guilty to federal offenses, including a FACE Act charge, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment.

A defendant was charged with FACE Act and other federal offenses for sending several threatening emails in 2017 to abortion clinics located in Chicago, Illinois, and Hammond, Indiana. The defendant pled guilty and was sentenced to 18 months imprisonment.

A defendant pled guilty to committing a FACE Act violation and another related federal offense for making several threatening telephone calls to an Anchorage, Alaska, area reproductive health care clinic in 2016. The defendant had made a death threat and a bomb threat. The defendant was sentenced to probation.

In 2016, two defendants were charged with FACE Act violations for vandalizing a Baltimore, Maryland, area abortion clinic on two separate occasions. One defendant pled guilty and the other was convicted at trial. Both defendants were sentenced to probation and ordered to pay restitution.

A defendant pled guilty to FACE Act violations for making telephonic death threats in 2014 to two Minneapolis, Minnesota, reproductive health care clinics. The defendant was sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

An Indiana defendant was convicted and sentenced to probation for committing a FACE Act violation in 2013. The defendant broke into a Bloomington, Indiana, Planned Parenthood clinic and caused extensive damage. The defendant was ordered to pay restitution for the damage caused.
A defendant was convicted and sentenced to probation for a FACE Act violation. The defendant was charged in 2012 for calling a Virginia OBGYN practice and making a bomb threat because the OBGYN practice offered abortion services.

In 2012, a defendant was convicted by a jury of FACE Act and federal arson charges for setting fire to a Planned Parenthood facility located in Grand Chute, Wisconsin. The defendant was sentenced to a total of 11 years imprisonment.

A defendant pled guilty to a FACE Act violation and other federal charges for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Madera, California, and other offenses committed in 2011. The defendant was sentenced to a period of incarceration and ordered to pay restitution.
https://www.justice.gov/crt/recent-case ... -providers
14 potential felonies in 11 years. That's a real crime spree there. Right up there with a Saturday in any major city.


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TC Talks
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:28 pm

craig11152 wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:04 pm
TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:40 am
Given that she is with a group well known for murder and violence, was asked to leave and she didn't, he made a reasonable decision. Stand your ground is a stupid law, but it's the law. At her age, she should have known better...

Here's just a taste of what this organization is capable of doing....
CRIMINAL
In 2021, a defendant pled guilty to a FACE Act violation and other state felony offenses for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Fort Myers, Florida, abortion clinic.

In 2021, a defendant pled guilty for damaging a Newark, Delaware, abortion clinic. The defendant threw a Molotov cocktail at the facility and vandalized it with spray paint.

In 2020, a defendant pled guilty and was sentenced to two years imprisonment for FACE Act related offenses in connection with a bomb threat call the defendant made to a Jacksonville, Florida, abortion clinic.

In 2019, a defendant was indicted for FACE Act violations and other federal offenses related to a 2015 shooting at a Planned Parenthood facility in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The defendant traveled to the facility and shot at several civilians, killing two and injuring three others. He then forced his way into the clinic where staff and patients hid. During a stand-off with the police, the defendant shot at police, killing one officer and injuring several others. The defendant also shot a civilian who was sheltering in place. The case is currently pending in federal district court.

In 2019, a defendant pled guilty to federal offenses, including a FACE Act violation, for causing damage to a reproductive health care clinic in Columbia, Missouri. The defendant threw a Molotov cocktail through the front door of a Planned Parenthood clinic. The defendant was sentenced to five years imprisonment.

In 2018, a defendant directed a threatening social media post to Planned Parenthood facilities and staff. The defendant plead guilty to federal offenses, including a FACE Act charge, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment.

A defendant was charged with FACE Act and other federal offenses for sending several threatening emails in 2017 to abortion clinics located in Chicago, Illinois, and Hammond, Indiana. The defendant pled guilty and was sentenced to 18 months imprisonment.

A defendant pled guilty to committing a FACE Act violation and another related federal offense for making several threatening telephone calls to an Anchorage, Alaska, area reproductive health care clinic in 2016. The defendant had made a death threat and a bomb threat. The defendant was sentenced to probation.

In 2016, two defendants were charged with FACE Act violations for vandalizing a Baltimore, Maryland, area abortion clinic on two separate occasions. One defendant pled guilty and the other was convicted at trial. Both defendants were sentenced to probation and ordered to pay restitution.

A defendant pled guilty to FACE Act violations for making telephonic death threats in 2014 to two Minneapolis, Minnesota, reproductive health care clinics. The defendant was sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

An Indiana defendant was convicted and sentenced to probation for committing a FACE Act violation in 2013. The defendant broke into a Bloomington, Indiana, Planned Parenthood clinic and caused extensive damage. The defendant was ordered to pay restitution for the damage caused.
A defendant was convicted and sentenced to probation for a FACE Act violation. The defendant was charged in 2012 for calling a Virginia OBGYN practice and making a bomb threat because the OBGYN practice offered abortion services.

In 2012, a defendant was convicted by a jury of FACE Act and federal arson charges for setting fire to a Planned Parenthood facility located in Grand Chute, Wisconsin. The defendant was sentenced to a total of 11 years imprisonment.

A defendant pled guilty to a FACE Act violation and other federal charges for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Madera, California, and other offenses committed in 2011. The defendant was sentenced to a period of incarceration and ordered to pay restitution.
https://www.justice.gov/crt/recent-case ... -providers
14 potential felonies in 11 years. That's a real crime spree there. Right up there with a Saturday in any major city.
So you're fine with killing and arson? Gotcha


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

User avatar
craig11152
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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by craig11152 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:49 pm

I think the point is you are fine conjuring up an extremely overinflated "danger" as justification to shoot anyone you disagree with.


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