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Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by Robert Faygo » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:39 pm

Rate This wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:06 pm
But legally speaking does anything change if you fear a future recourse and shoot someone to prevent it ahead of time?
If anything, I think using that as a defense would make it worse. You'd be handing the prosecutor premeditation on a silver platter.

What you think might happen is not a defense. It has to be actually happening (or be able to prove that it is demonstrably going to happen).

Paranoia might be good if your going for an insanity defense though.


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:46 pm

The fear of great bodily harm or death must be imminent. You can certainly prepare yourself for a future expected encounter, but for self-defense to apply to the use of lethal force, you must have reason to believe that your life is either in danger at that exact moment or that there is a high probability of great bodily harm or death forthcoming if you don't act immediately. The fear of somebody who is in the act of leaving your house possibly (or even likely) coming back later isn't even close to meeting this requirement. Even if that person says something like "I'm going to go get my husband and he's going to kill you" that is still not enough to use lethal force at that moment.



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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by kager » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:12 pm

Robert Faygo wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:39 pm
Paranoia might be good if your going for an insanity defense though.
TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:34 pm
You're nuts. I am perfectly reasoned in my opinion about your terrorist group and how citizens should prepare to defend themselves from the history of violence. Given the fact that this group is out canvassing I'd suggest every person here be armed and ready to take action. They have a demonstrated History of violence.


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by Rate This » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:19 pm

bmw wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:46 pm
The fear of great bodily harm or death must be imminent. You can certainly prepare yourself for a future expected encounter, but for self-defense to apply to the use of lethal force, you must have reason to believe that your life is either in danger at that exact moment or that there is a high probability of great bodily harm or death forthcoming if you don't act immediately. The fear of somebody who is in the act of leaving your house possibly (or even likely) coming back later isn't even close to meeting this requirement. Even if that person says something like "I'm going to go get my husband and he's going to kill you" that is still not enough to use lethal force at that moment.
Interesting, thanks for answering the question. I had a brick thrown through my window and I’m not deterred… this guy got scared by an old lady with a clipboard… that’s insane.



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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:26 pm

kager wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:12 pm
Robert Faygo wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:39 pm
Paranoia might be good if your going for an insanity defense though.
TC Talks wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:34 pm
You're nuts. I am perfectly reasoned in my opinion about your terrorist group and how citizens should prepare to defend themselves from the history of violence. Given the fact that this group is out canvassing I'd suggest every person here be armed and ready to take action. They have a demonstrated History of violence.
Before we go ahead and throw the word paranoid around, let's just take a look at some of the highlights of the violence against abortion clinics in our country alone. This is without a doubt an organization with a domestic terrorism branch.
United States

Murders

In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a clinic escort. Seven murders occurred in the 1990s.

March 10, 1993: Gynaecologist David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
July 29, 1994: John Britton, a physician, and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before in 1984 and was also bombed subsequently in 2012.
December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Rudolph admitted responsibility; he was also charged with three Atlanta bombings: the 1997 bombing of an abortion center, the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, and another of a lesbian nightclub. He was found guilty of the crimes and received two life sentences as a result.
October 23, 1998: Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after being apprehended in France in 2001.
May 31, 2009: George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at a church in Wichita, Kansas. This was not Tiller's first time being a victim to anti-abortion violence. Tiller was shot once before in 1993 by Shelley Shannon, who was sentenced 10 years in prison for the shooting.
November 27, 2015: A shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado, left three dead and several injured, and a suspect Robert L. Dear was apprehended.[I 25][I 26] The suspect had previously acted against other clinics, and referred to himself as a "warrior for the babies" at his hearing.[I 27][I 28] Neighbors and former neighbors described the suspect as "reclusive",[I 25] and police from several states where the suspect resided described a history of run-ins dating from at least 1997.[I 26] As of December 2015, the trial of the suspect was open;[I 27] but, on May 11, 2016, the court declared the suspect incompetent to stand trial after a mental evaluation was completed.[I 29]

Attempted murder, assault, and kidnapping

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,[I 30] 100 butyric acid stink bomb attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats,[I 31] and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[I 32] Between 1977 and 1990, 77 death threats were made, with 250 made between 1991 and 1999.[I 30] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[I 16][I 5][I 6] in 1985 45% of clinics reported bomb threats, decreasing to 15% in 2000. One fifth of clinics in 2000 experienced some form of extreme activity.[I 33]

August 1982: Three men identifying as the Army of God kidnapped Hector Zevallos (a doctor and clinic owner) and his wife, Rosalee Jean, holding them for eight days.[16]
June 15, 1984: A month after he destroyed suction equipment at a Birmingham clinic, Edward Markley, a Benedictine priest who was the Birmingham diocesan "Coordinator for Pro-Life Activities".[I 34][I 35] (and perhaps an accomplice[citation needed]), entered the Women's Community Health Center in Huntsville, Alabama, assaulting at least three clinic workers.[citation needed] Kathryn Wood, one of the workers, received back injuries and a broken neck vertebrae while preventing Markley from splashing red paint on the clinic's equipment. Markley was convicted of first-degree criminal mischief, one count of third-degree assault, and one count of harassment in the Huntsville attack.[17]
August 19, 1993: George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was convicted of the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barrett was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and John Britton.
December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
December 18, 1996: Calvin Jackson, a medical doctor of New Orleans, Louisiana was stabbed 15 times, losing 4 pints of blood. Donald Cooper was charged with second degree attempted murder and was sentenced to 20 years. "Donald Cooper's Day of Violence", by Kara Lowentheil, Choice! Magazine, December 21, 2004.
October 28, 1997: David Gandell, a medical doctor of Rochester, New York sustained serious injuries after being targeted by a sniper firing through a window in his home.[I 36]
January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed off-duty police officer Robert Sanderson.
clinic.[I 61][I 62]
January 22, 2009: Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness,[I 63] rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Saint Paul, Minnesota,[I 64] causing between $2,500 and $5,000 in damage.[27] Derosia, who told police that Jesus told him to "stop the murderers," was ruled competent to stand trial. He pleaded guilty in March 2009 to one count of criminal damage to property.[27]
August 29, 2009: Two days after a nearby anti-abortion protest, an unknown arsonist threw a molotov cocktail at a Planned Parenthood in Lincoln, Nebraska. The bomb fell short of the building, leaving no property damage or casualties.[28]
January 1, 2012: Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family Planning Clinic in Pensacola, Florida, with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.[I 65]
April 1, 2012: A bomb exploded on the windowsill of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, resulting in a fire that caused minimal damage.[29]
April 11, 2013: Benjamin David Curell, 27, caused extensive damage to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Bloomington, Indiana, vandalizing it with an axe.[I 66][30] Curell was convicted in state court of felony burglary, and pleaded guilty in federal court to one count of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act. In the federal case, he was sentenced to three years of probation and ordered to pay restitution.[31]
October 3–4, 2013: 32-year-old Jebediah Stout attempted to set a Planned Parenthood clinic in Joplin, Missouri on fire two days in a row. Stout previously set a fire at a Joplin mosque.[32]
September 4, 2015: A Planned Parenthood clinic in Pullman, Washington was intentionally set on fire. No injuries were reported due to the time of day, but the FBI was involved because of a history of domestic terrorism against the clinic.[I 67] The crime was never solved. The clinic reopened six months later.[33]
October 22, 2015: A Planned Parenthood clinic in Claremont, New Hampshire was vandalized by a juvenile intruder. Damaged in the attack were computers, furniture, plumbing fixtures, office equipment, medical equipment, phone lines, windows, and walls. The flooding that resulted from the vandalism also damaged an adjacent business.[I 68][I 69]
February 24–25, 2016: Travis Reynolds, 21, vandalized a Baltimore-area women's health care clinic with anti-abortion graffiti.[34][35] After being arrested, Reynolds "admitted to police that he defaced the clinic's doors, walls and windows because he thought that it would deter women from using the clinic."[35] Reynolds pleaded guilty in federal court to one count of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act in October 2016.[35]
March 7, 2016: Rachel Ann Jackson, 71, vandalized a Planned Parenthood clinic in Columbus, Ohio, with the message "SATAN DEN OF BABY KILLERS..." She pleaded guilty to felony counts of breaking and entering and vandalism and a misdemeanor count of aggravated trespass.[36][37] Jackson was sentenced to probation, with the judge citing her struggle with serious mental illness as a mitigating factor.[37]
February 10, 2019: Wesley Brian Kaster, 43, threw a Molotov cocktail at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Columbia, Missouri. Kaster admitted to setting the fire because Planned Parenthood provided abortions, although Planned Parenthood stated that the clinic was not providing abortions at the time due to a state law. Kaster was sentenced to five years in prison.[38]
January 3, 2020: A high school student, Samuel Gulick, spray-painted "Deus Vult" on a clinic in Newark, Delaware before throwing a Molotov Cocktail at the front window. Gulick was sentenced to 26 months in prison by a federal judge.[39]
October 10, 2020: A man threw multiple Molotovs at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Fort Myers, Florida.[40]
January 23, 2021: An unknown individual fired a shotgun at a Tennessee Planned Parenthood clinic; no one was injured. News outlets noted that the attack took place on the anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision and at a time when Tennessee's governor, Bill Lee, was involved in a heated online debate regarding abortion and health care.[41]
November 23, 2021: A man destroyed several windows and security cameras at a Planned Parenthood in Grants Pass, Oregon. Devin Kruse, 27, pleaded guilty to two counts of violating the federal Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act.[42]
December 31, 2021: On New Year's Eve, a fire destroyed a Planned Parenthood in Knoxville, Tennessee. The building was closed at the time for renovations. The Knoxville Fire Department and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives ruled the fire arson. The clinic had previously been shot at in January of the same year.[43]
May 25, 2022: A masked woman set a fire at a planned abortion clinic in Casper, Wyoming. The ATF offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to her arrest.[44]
July 31, 2022: A man set a Planned Parenthood building on fire in Kalamazoo, Michigan. A suspect was charged with arson of an organization receiving federal funding. According to investigators the suspect posted videos on YouTube railing against abortion and other topics.[45]

Anthrax threats

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the shooting of Barnett Slepian; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.[I 5][I 70]

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by kager » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:47 pm

Except, this wasn't an abortion / PP clinic.


"The problem with communication is the illusion that it has occurred."

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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:53 am

kager wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:47 pm
Except, this wasn't an abortion / PP clinic.
That is true but this woman was part of that organization. To juxtate this topic, if she was a black lives matter canvasser and something like this happened there are some on this board that would see no problem with what the old nut job did with his gun.


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by audiophile » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:49 am

Doubtful.

You supported the old nut job - what does that make you?


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by km1125 » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:57 am

audiophile wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:49 am
Doubtful.

You supported the old nut job - what does that make you?
Perhaps an "old nut jockstrap"??

Just guessing.



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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:59 pm

audiophile wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:49 am
Doubtful.

You supported the old nut job - what does that make you?
Voting for Biden is not the same thing as supporting. I wrote a check to many Democrats this last cycle and he wasn't one of them.


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by Robert Faygo » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:06 pm

TC Talks wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:59 pm
audiophile wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:49 am
Doubtful.

You supported the old nut job - what does that make you?
Voting for Biden is not the same thing as supporting. I wrote a check to many Democrats this last cycle and he wasn't one of them.
Do you even bother to try to comprehend what people post? This reply, besides it being completely out of context, is -- bar none -- the flat out dumbest thing you've ever posted on this here interwebs forum. Congrats!


Wellllll... la de frickin da

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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:16 pm

Robert Faygo wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:06 pm
TC Talks wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:59 pm
audiophile wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:49 am
Doubtful.

You supported the old nut job - what does that make you?
Voting for Biden is not the same thing as supporting. I wrote a check to many Democrats this last cycle and he wasn't one of them.
Do you even bother to try to comprehend what people post? This reply, besides it being completely out of context, is -- bar none -- the flat out dumbest thing you've ever posted on this here interwebs forum. Congrats!
I guess I read it different than you. I supported Bernie Sanders. I don't believe I ever supported Biden beyond voting for him.


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by Rate This » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:20 pm

TC Talks wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:16 pm
Robert Faygo wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:06 pm
TC Talks wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:59 pm
audiophile wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:49 am
Doubtful.

You supported the old nut job - what does that make you?
Voting for Biden is not the same thing as supporting. I wrote a check to many Democrats this last cycle and he wasn't one of them.
Do you even bother to try to comprehend what people post? This reply, besides it being completely out of context, is -- bar none -- the flat out dumbest thing you've ever posted on this here interwebs forum. Congrats!
I guess I read it different than you. I supported Bernie Sanders. I don't believe I ever supported Biden beyond voting for him.
The old nutjob is the guy who shot the even older nutjob because she was armed with a clipboard.



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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by TC Talks » Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:43 pm

Ah, I'm in lots of threads at the moment.


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Re: Michigan man shoots 84-year-old pro-life volunteer collecting signatures against Prop 3

Post by bmw » Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:00 pm

Your response to me saying I've never "endorsed" anybody:
TC Talks wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:49 am
Defending them and not condemning acts of violence is a pretty clear path to endorsement.
Your response to somebody telling you that you supported Biden:
TC Talks wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:59 pm
Voting for Biden is not the same thing as supporting.
You made these 2 comments on 2 different topics literally 6 hours apart from each other. So voting for someone does not equate to "supporting" that person, but merely not condemning (which I did, but that is beside the point) something equates to "endorsement" of said behavior? :lol



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