How Cities Lost Control of Police Discipline

[TC Talks]

How many of the people who post here came from families who participated in a white flight out of cities like Detroit? Chances are if you grew up in a suburb of one of Michigan's cities you are. Read this fascinating article about how we are in the epicenter hope the fight between bad cops and the white man who defend them.

In the chaos of 1960s Detroit, a fledgling police union laid the groundwork for a system that, to this day, constrains discipline for officers accused of misconduct.

It took Portland, Ore., almost $1 million in legal fees, efforts by two mayors and a police chief, and years of battle with the police union to defend the firing of Officer Ron Frashour — only to have to bring him back. Today, the veteran white officer, who shot an unarmed Black man in the back a decade ago, is still on the force.

Sam Adams, the former mayor of Portland, said the frustrated disciplinary effort showed “how little control we had” over the police. “This was as bad a part of government as I’d ever seen. The government gets to kill someone and get away with it.”

After the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis officers in May spurred H*** protests and calls for a nationwide reset on law enforcement, police departments are facing new state laws, ballot proposals and procedures to rein in abusive officers. Portland and other cities have hired new chiefs and are strengthening civilian oversight. Some municipal leaders have responded faster than ever to high-profile allegations of misconduct: Since May, nearly 40 officers have been fired for use of force or racist behavior.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/us/p ... pline.html

[TC Shuts Up]

You have to be living in an alternative universe to believe this.

99.999% of these shootings and killings happened when the person resisted arrest, and then went for a gun or knife to kill the police officer. If they had surrendered, they would still be alive. I have been stopped and also followed for tens of miles though, waiting for me to screw up. Often, I turned off on a side street to see if they would follow. They gave up. So even being white, I have been given a hard time. But I would never reach for a weapon. I guess I could get outraged about it, but I support defensive moves when police are threatened.

It seems particularly hypocritical when you point fingers at us considering your privileged background, which I will not expand on. However, I did not grow up in such a suburban community. In fact, I grew up within the city limits of an urban community. In fact, some of the stops may have been done based on the license coming back registered to an address in that community, well outside that community, and driving a car that wasn't a junker, a recent GM car, which they may have assumed was stolen.

[Bryce]

How Cities Lost Control Of Crime And The People That Commit It.

See:

Memphis - Violent crime rate (per 1,000 residents): 19.5
Baltimore - Violent crime rate (per 1,000 residents): 18.5
Flint - Violent crime rate (per 1,000 residents): 18.3
St. Louis - Violent crime rate (per 1,000 residents): 18.2
Saginaw - Violent crime rate (per 1,000 residents): 16.7

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

How many of the people who post here came from families who participated in a white flight out of cities like Detroit? Chances are if you grew up in a suburb of one of Michigan's cities you are. Read this fascinating article about how we are in the epicenter hope the fight between bad cops and the white man who defend them.

In the chaos of 1960s Detroit, a fledgling police union laid the groundwork for a system that, to this day, constrains discipline for officers accused of misconduct.

It took Portland, Ore., almost $1 million in legal fees, efforts by two mayors and a police chief, and years of battle with the police union to defend the firing of Officer Ron Frashour — only to have to bring him back. Today, the veteran white officer, who shot an unarmed Black man in the back a decade ago, is still on the force.

Sam Adams, the former mayor of Portland, said the frustrated disciplinary effort showed “how little control we had” over the police. “This was as bad a part of government as I’d ever seen. The government gets to kill someone and get away with it.”

After the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis officers in May spurred H*** protests and calls for a nationwide reset on law enforcement, police departments are facing new state laws, ballot proposals and procedures to rein in abusive officers. Portland and other cities have hired new chiefs and are strengthening civilian oversight. Some municipal leaders have responded faster than ever to high-profile allegations of misconduct: Since May, nearly 40 officers have been fired for use of force or racist behavior.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/us/p ... pline.html

It's pretty obvious that the city of Detroit lost its population due to white flight. The vast majority of people in the metro Detroit suburbs fled in the 50's-80s. I know my parents and grand parents did.

It's sad to think that cities like Highland Park and Hamtramck were the jewel of the state 75 years ago and are now not much more than rubble. Bad trade deals, white flight, and Reaganomics destroyed them.

As far as the city and its bastardized police force, plenty of people knew about the vice squad in the 60s. Pretty sure they had a quota for every black man they brutalized per month. One former Warren councilman did their bidding. Good ole boy, Mike Wiecek.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

For the record, yes, Coleman Young did not help matters.

[TC Shuts Up]

For the record, yes, Coleman Young did not help matters.

He despised white people. He tolerated those who had enough money and influence to help him continue his tenure as mayor.

Part of me wished he had fought Bill Bonds, as long as it was televised. They probably would have set up theaters where you had to pay to see it though.

He probably despised most Black people too. He seemed misanthropic.

[km1125]

....Bad trade deals, white flight, and Reaganomics destroyed them. ....

That's just complete bullshit.

While external forces certainly were in play and caused a significant drop in the money coming into the city, you really have to ask two things. Why were folks leaving? Why were companies leaving? Residents and leaders decided to tolerate a rise in crime, instead of shutting it down. City leadership and workers made it intolerable for companies to operate. Those two were as big (if not bigger) than any of the other reasons for the city's decline.

Blaming it all on others rather than taking personal responsibility is the #1 cause. And is still true to this day.

[Bryce]

....Bad trade deals, white flight, and Reaganomics destroyed them. ....

That's just complete bullshit.

While external forces certainly were in play and caused a significant drop in the money coming into the city, you really have to ask two things. Why were folks leaving? Why were companies leaving? Residents and leaders decided to tolerate a rise in crime, instead of shutting it down. City leadership and workers made it intolerable for companies to operate. Those two were as big (if not bigger) than any of the other reasons for the city's decline.

Blaming it all on others rather than taking personal responsibility is the #1 cause. And is still true to this day.

Add to that the sorry state of the school system.

[Rate This]

....Bad trade deals, white flight, and Reaganomics destroyed them. ....

That's just complete bullshit.

While external forces certainly were in play and caused a significant drop in the money coming into the city, you really have to ask two things. Why were folks leaving? Why were companies leaving? Residents and leaders decided to tolerate a rise in crime, instead of shutting it down. City leadership and workers made it intolerable for companies to operate. Those two were as big (if not bigger) than any of the other reasons for the city's decline.

Blaming it all on others rather than taking personal responsibility is the #1 cause. And is still true to this day.

Before 1968 these things really weren’t the case. Suburbanization is your biggest culprit as well as redlining. Why be in a cramped city when you can spread out in the suburbs and here’s a map of where the blacks are in relation to your home. Now sign on the dotted line.

After the riots your argument has some merit in accelerating the decline. But before the riots Detroit was a world class model of urban revitalization and renewal. Crime was not way up and nobody was tolerating anything.

[Rate This]

Before 1968 these things really weren’t the case. Suburbanization is your biggest culprit as well as redlining. Why be in a cramped city when you can spread out in the suburbs and here’s a map of where the blacks are in relation to your home. Now sign on the dotted line.

Oh look, a keyboard sociologist

Oh look... an imbecile who hasn’t studied the practices in effect at the time in any depth.

[km1125]

Before 1968 these things really weren’t the case. Suburbanization is your biggest culprit as well as redlining. Why be in a cramped city when you can spread out in the suburbs and here’s a map of where the blacks are in relation to your home. Now sign on the dotted line.

After the riots your argument has some merit in accelerating the decline. But before the riots Detroit was a world class model of urban revitalization and renewal. Crime was not way up and nobody was tolerating anything.

Again I say... BULLSHIT.

Crime rose HIGHER as things were melting down, but Detroit had riots going back to the 1800's. Who'd really want to live in that kind of an environment?

And, so what if 'white flight' occurred and folks moved to the suburbs? There are a plethora of things that could have been done if folks (residents and 'leaders') really understood they had a personal responsibility to maintain a functional city. If income drops, cut costs. Applies to the city as well as the residents. If you can't buy food, then grow it...etc, etc.

[Rate This]

Before 1968 these things really weren’t the case. Suburbanization is your biggest culprit as well as redlining. Why be in a cramped city when you can spread out in the suburbs and here’s a map of where the blacks are in relation to your home. Now sign on the dotted line.

After the riots your argument has some merit in accelerating the decline. But before the riots Detroit was a world class model of urban revitalization and renewal. Crime was not way up and nobody was tolerating anything.

Again I say... BULLSHIT.

Crime rose HIGHER as things were melting down, but Detroit had riots going back to the 1800's. Who'd really want to live in that kind of an environment?

And, so what if 'white flight' occurred and folks moved to the suburbs? There are a plethora of things that could have been done if folks (residents and 'leaders') really understood they had a personal responsibility to maintain a functional city. If income drops, cut costs. Applies to the city as well as the residents. If you can't buy food, then grow it...etc, etc.

It wasn't called the Paris of the Midwest just for kicks. Economics always trumps race or any other factor.

[km1125]

It wasn't called the Paris of the Midwest just for kicks. Economics always trumps race or any other factor.

Other cities could bypass Detroit in growth, prosperity and allure, but the only reason why Detroit turned into a shithole was because there was no personal responsibility in enough of the citizens or their "leadership". Noting that their "leadership" is a direct result of the voting of the citizens, the majority of the citizen took no personal responsibility to stop the city from turning into a shithole.

Period.

[Rate This]

It wasn't called the Paris of the Midwest just for kicks. Economics always trumps race or any other factor.

Other cities could bypass Detroit in growth, prosperity and allure, but the only reason why Detroit turned into a shithole was because there was no personal responsibility in enough of the citizens or their "leadership". Noting that their "leadership" is a direct result of the voting of the citizens, the majority of the citizen took no personal responsibility to stop the city from turning into a shithole.

Period.

The majority of the citizens left. Forget personal responsibility. They got out of town. So if you want to talk personal responsibility let’s talk about the white folks who didn’t give a shit and left for the burbs first. When the riot happened they didn’t stand up and say hey not here let’s fix this... they got out of Dodge at a much faster rate than they had been. Nobody likes to talk about that... they just like to rag on the folks who were left who did not have the social fabric the previous people did. And that’s regardless of race... the folks who came in after them simply were lower on the social ladder and that comes with a lot of baggage that’s hard to overcome.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

....Bad trade deals, white flight, and Reaganomics destroyed them. ....

That's just complete bullshit.

While external forces certainly were in play and caused a significant drop in the money coming into the city, you really have to ask two things. Why were folks leaving? Why were companies leaving? Residents and leaders decided to tolerate a rise in crime, instead of shutting it down. City leadership and workers made it intolerable for companies to operate. Those two were as big (if not bigger) than any of the other reasons for the city's decline.

Blaming it all on others rather than taking personal responsibility is the #1 cause. And is still true to this day.

Before 1968 these things really weren’t the case. Suburbanization is your biggest culprit as well as redlining. Why be in a cramped city when you can spread out in the suburbs and here’s a map of where the blacks are in relation to your home. Now sign on the dotted line.

After the riots your argument has some merit in accelerating the decline. But before the riots Detroit was a world class model of urban revitalization and renewal. Crime was not way up and nobody was tolerating anything.

Absolutely right. White flight ruined Detroit. Think of all the abandoned homes in the 70s from people fleeing. My dad lived on Westphalia near 7 Mile and Schoenherr. He moved because white landlords were not taking care of their properties in the late 70s. In the early 70s, it was a thriving neighborhoood.

We moved away from championing home ownership in the 70s and 80s. Very sad. The big boy barons dug in their heels when they got the tax cuts they voted for in 1980.