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Michigan Probation System Is Broken

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Rate This » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:38 am

Bryce wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:11 am
Are you guys insinuating that these folks are committing those crimes because of mental health issues? Armed robbery? Really?

Now, even if, as you claim, Engler policy was the primary cause of the poor quality of our probation system, that was 17 years ago. There have been several others in office since then. Isn't it their responsibility to fix problems?

Are people blaming Rich Rod for the reason U of M football is so dismal right now? The new guy is responsible for fixing things.
Yes I’m absolutely insinuating that mental health issues contribute to criminality. Only a moron would disagree with that. The type of crime is irrelevant to whether somebody is fucked up in the head.



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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Bryce » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:41 am

Your assertion is weak in this instance. Every one of these repeat offenders who committed crimes that required some forethought and planning were found more than competent to stand trial for their past offences.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Rate This » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:46 am

Bryce wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:41 am
Your assertion is weak in this instance. Every one of these repeat offenders who committed crimes that required some forethought and planning were found more than competent to stand trial for their past offences.
Competency has nothing to do with whether there are some mental health issues at play. You can be “competent” and still have developmental issues or be bi-polar or prone to addiction or have schizophrenia or any one of a hundred other things that negatively influence behavior involuntarily.

The insinuation that everybody is equally in control and only chooses to commit crimes is rather ignorant. This isn’t that black and white. Not even close.



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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Bryce » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:18 pm

Surely not everyone that suffers from some sort of mental health issue deals drugs or commits violent crimes? We need to deal with violent felons differently.

Take a look at the soaring crime rates in the cities that have chosen to treat crime as a mental health issue by diverting police funding to mental health. People still have mental health issues and crime is up to boot.

And to place the blame on policy from 17 years ago as a excuse not to fix a problem now is ludicrous.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Rate This » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:10 pm

Bryce wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:18 pm
Surely not everyone that suffers from some sort of mental health issue deals drugs or commits violent crimes? We need to deal with violent felons differently.

Take a look at the soaring crime rates in the cities that have chosen to treat crime as a mental health issue by diverting police funding to mental health. People still have mental health issues and crime is up to boot.

And to place the blame on policy from 17 years ago as a excuse not to fix a problem now is ludicrous.
Nobody ever said that first sentence. I’m saying it’s a major contributing factor. The argument was not to treat crime as a mental health issue. It was to treat domestic cases and people with suicide in mind with a deescalation strategy. That makes sense. Most of the time you can talk people down if you know how to do it. Police officers are not trained for that nor should they have that burden put on them. The solution to a guy coming at you screaming “shoot me!!!!” Is not to shoot him. And many times the family calls 911 for HELP for the person and on the other end they get shot and killed because police training is to neutralize threats. It’s not to sit and negotiate.

Additionally body cams and tasers need to be legally mandatory for all departments and officers and need to be using them on every encounter. If you’re a cop and don’t like that then bye-bye to you. Find a new line of work. Get a new gig. This ones not for you. And if you refuse to use it it’s mandatory 30 days on the street first offense with no pay and a $1000 fine. We can fix these things on the police end of it if we play hardball. Also mandatory hiring minimums of a bachelors degree would also help. I don’t particularly want to have somebody making life and death decisions with the competency and education level of a 7-11 clerk if I can help it. Killing the police unions is also a must. Nobody should be rolling around with 20 excessive force complaints piled up on him. At some point you’re outta there. Dismantling the police state we have built over the last 50 years would help with deescalation as well.

As for the criminals... yes the system needs significant reform. Making room for violent offenders by letting non-violent drug offenders out would go a long ways. So would stiffening up the sentencing laws surrounding violent crimes and reducing judicial discretion over term lengths.



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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Bryce » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:33 am

Although I do agree with some of the points you make it your last post, we have wandered off the road I was traveling when starting this thread.

The probation and parole system as it currently operates is in urgent need of change. Convicted felons, people that have shown a willingness to commit violent acts, while in many cases in the process of committing other crimes, are too often found to be repeat offenders soon after their release from custody.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Rate This » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:55 am

Bryce wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:33 am
Although I do agree with some of the points you make it your last post, we have wandered off the road I was traveling when starting this thread.

The probation and parole system as it currently operates is in urgent need of change. Convicted felons, people that have shown a willingness to commit violent acts, while in many cases in the process of committing other crimes, are too often found to be repeat offenders soon after their release from custody.
Absolutely... after the 70th crime you’d think they’d be in prison... we need to have a no exceptions three strikes rule or something. Just a blanket do not pass go.



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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Bryce » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:11 am

Rate This wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:10 pm
The solution to a guy coming at you screaming “shoot me!!!!” Is not to shoot him. And many times the family calls 911 for HELP for the person and on the other end they get shot and killed because police training is to neutralize threats. It’s not to sit and negotiate.

Additionally body cams and tasers need to be legally mandatory for all departments and officers and need to be using them on every encounter.
Although this has nothing to do with this thread, I feel the need to expound on this a bit it. It's not meant to challenge, but to educate.
The solution to a guy coming at you screaming “shoot me!!!!” Is not to shoot him.
Maybe. Maybe not. You don't say if the person coming at the officer is armed or not. That changes the situation dramatically. Let's take a scenario of this screaming person coming at you and armed with a knife. This is a situation I see many of the anti-police people get indignant about when an officer has to use their firearm to neutralize the immediate threat. I have actually read people say "He only had a knife."

A couple of things to keep in mind. One, the body armor police wear is designed to stop a bullet, not a knife. Knives can and do penetrate body armor. In most designs, the side of the officers body is exposed as well. Not to mention the legs, where the femoral artery is located. A femoral artery stab would will have you assuming room temperature in a matter of minutes.

Two. When you see someone holding a knife and standing 21 feet away from an officer shouting, screaming and maybe even threatening, it doesn't LOOK like anyone is in imminent danger, but they surely are. An average individual can traverse the distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Some will be faster. Anyone within 21 feet from that person with a knife is potentially 1.5 seconds away from getting stabbed and loosing their life.

Ask yourself this. How long would it take you to recognize a threat, react, draw a weapon and fire? If it's longer than 1.5 seconds, you or someone else could be dead. And that's at 21 feet. How about 10?

Three. Tasers. Tasers are great, when they work. I know, I had to agree to have one used on me during taser training. But, they don't always work. In order for a taser to do it's job, both prongs need to penetrate the skin. If only one penetrates, nothing is going to happen beyond minor irritation. Heavy clothes, movement and poor aim are several reasons they can fail. Plus, many tasers carry only one shot without having to be reloaded. Yes, there are some two shot models out there. Professional carpenters are fond of saying you need to use the right tool for the task at hand. Police officers need to use the right tools too. If you know you are 1.5 seconds away from severe injury and even death, are you going to use a tool that you only have one attempt to get the job done or a tool that gives you 12?

Yes. Police are trained to neutralize threats. They have to be.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Rate This » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:18 pm

Bryce wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:11 am
Rate This wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:10 pm
The solution to a guy coming at you screaming “shoot me!!!!” Is not to shoot him. And many times the family calls 911 for HELP for the person and on the other end they get shot and killed because police training is to neutralize threats. It’s not to sit and negotiate.

Additionally body cams and tasers need to be legally mandatory for all departments and officers and need to be using them on every encounter.
Although this has nothing to do with this thread, I feel the need to expound on this a bit it. It's not meant to challenge, but to educate.
The solution to a guy coming at you screaming “shoot me!!!!” Is not to shoot him.
Maybe. Maybe not. You don't say if the person coming at the officer is armed or not. That changes the situation dramatically. Let's take a scenario of this screaming person coming at you and armed with a knife. This is a situation I see many of the anti-police people get indignant about when an officer has to use their firearm to neutralize the immediate threat. I have actually read people say "He only had a knife."

A couple of things to keep in mind. One, the body armor police wear is designed to stop a bullet, not a knife. Knives can and do penetrate body armor. In most designs, the side of the officers body is exposed as well. Not to mention the legs, where the femoral artery is located. A femoral artery stab would will have you assuming room temperature in a matter of minutes.

Two. When you see someone holding a knife and standing 21 feet away from an officer shouting, screaming and maybe even threatening, it doesn't LOOK like anyone is in imminent danger, but they surely are. An average individual can traverse the distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Some will be faster. Anyone within 21 feet from that person with a knife is potentially 1.5 seconds away from getting stabbed and loosing their life.

Ask yourself this. How long would it take you to recognize a threat, react, draw a weapon and fire? If it's longer than 1.5 seconds, you or someone else could be dead. And that's at 21 feet. How about 10?

Three. Tasers. Tasers are great, when they work. I know, I had to agree to have one used on me during taser training. But, they don't always work. In order for a taser to do it's job, both prongs need to penetrate the skin. If only one penetrates, nothing is going to happen beyond minor irritation. Heavy clothes, movement and poor aim are several reasons they can fail. Plus, many tasers carry only one shot without having to be reloaded. Yes, there are some two shot models out there. Professional carpenters are fond of saying you need to use the right tool for the task at hand. Police officers need to use the right tools too. If you know you are 1.5 seconds away from severe injury and even death, are you going to use a tool that you only have one attempt to get the job done or a tool that gives you 12?

Yes. Police are trained to neutralize threats. They have to be.
Good points... how about an electrically charged pitchfork?



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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Bryce » Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:51 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:17 pm
EXCELLENT post, Bryce.

Sure would be nice if the media would interview - or at least identify - the judges, parole boards, etc. who let these THUGS back onto the street.
Thank you for the nice comment and prudent suggestions.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by MotorCityRadioFreak » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:18 pm

I applaud you for bringing up this topic as well.

In response to your question to me, I think a lot of it is due to mental issues. You brought up that 35 year old ramming the cops, and it made me harken to the horrific days where my immediate neighborhood was terrorized by a guy who had abandonment issues from his mom rarely having time for him growing up and his dad being in jail. Grandma was his guardian and did a piss poor job of it. He would have 3 girls hang around his house getting high after his druggie friends made their deliveries. He ran drugs as well to my next door neighbor growing up. When they got foreclosed on in 2008, another neighbor bought the house to flip it and rent it out. They had a closet completely filled with cock roaches (and other roaches if you know what I mean) and a hole in the upstairs floor. That was in addition the dying marijuana plants found in the basement. You can't tell me that people living in such conditions didn't have mental issues.

As far as Whitmer, I do hope she reforms the system, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Kind of hard to reform a probation system in the worst pandemic of our lifetimes.


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Remember that “2000 Mules” was concocted by a circus of elephants.
The right needs to stop worry about what’s between people’s legs. Instead, they should focus on what’s between their ears.
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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Bryce » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:37 pm

MotorCityRadioFreak wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:18 pm
You can't tell me that people living in such conditions didn't have mental issues.
Well, I guess if being addicted to drugs, and also lazy as fuck, qualifies as mental issues...

Did they physically assault anyone? If you want to live in squalor, do drugs and fuck all day, you go. Well, as long as I don't have to pay for it. If you commit violent crimes, off to prison you go, and you should stay there until we know for sure you wont commit any more.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by MotorCityRadioFreak » Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:23 pm

Bryce wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:37 pm
MotorCityRadioFreak wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:18 pm
You can't tell me that people living in such conditions didn't have mental issues.
Well, I guess if being addicted to drugs, and also lazy as fuck, qualifies as mental issues...

Did they physically assault anyone? If you want to live in squalor, do drugs and fuck all day, you go. Well, as long as I don't have to pay for it. If you commit violent crimes, off to prison you go, and you should stay there until we know for sure you wont commit any more.
I knew the kid. He would come over when I was younger. Trust me, he was really fucked up even then. If your dad was a serial pursue thief and your mom was a crack addict, you would be too.

And yes, the dad assaulted several of these senior women while getting their purses. The kid(now probably 33) rammed the cop car at his house with his car and sped down our residential street at 45 mph crashing in to the park gate. Could have killed a young kid or the cop in that car.
Last edited by MotorCityRadioFreak on Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Remember that “2000 Mules” was concocted by a circus of elephants.
The right needs to stop worry about what’s between people’s legs. Instead, they should focus on what’s between their ears.
Audacity sucks.

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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Rate This » Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:50 pm

Bryce wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:37 pm
MotorCityRadioFreak wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:18 pm
You can't tell me that people living in such conditions didn't have mental issues.
Well, I guess if being addicted to drugs, and also lazy as fuck, qualifies as mental issues...

Did they physically assault anyone? If you want to live in squalor, do drugs and fuck all day, you go. Well, as long as I don't have to pay for it. If you commit violent crimes, off to prison you go, and you should stay there until we know for sure you wont commit any more.
You have to look at the underlying reasons. You’re focused on the effects.



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Re: Michigan Probation System Is Broken

Post by Bryce » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:55 am

Bryce wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:11 am
Rate This wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:10 pm

Additionally body cams and tasers need to be legally mandatory for all departments and officers and need to be using them on every encounter.




Three. Tasers. Tasers are great, when they work. I know, I had to agree to have one used on me during taser training. But, they don't always work. In order for a taser to do it's job, both prongs need to penetrate the skin. If only one penetrates, nothing is going to happen beyond minor irritation. Heavy clothes, movement and poor aim are several reasons they can fail. Plus, many tasers carry only one shot without having to be reloaded. Yes, there are some two shot models out there. Professional carpenters are fond of saying you need to use the right tool for the task at hand. Police officers need to use the right tools too. If you know you are 1.5 seconds away from severe injury and even death, are you going to use a tool that you only have one attempt to get the job done or a tool that gives you 12?

Yes. Police are trained to neutralize threats. They have to be.
Case in point...

A Florida deputy died Monday after a suspect intentionally crashed into his cruiser in the Brandon area, according to authorities. Master Corporal Brian LaVigne, 54, who spent more than 30 years in service, was just one day away from retirement, Hillsborough County Sheriff Chad Chronister said in a press conference Monday evening.

Police said the suspect, Travis Zachary Gabriel Garrett, 28, intentionally switched two lanes before ramming his car into the driver's side of LaVigne's cruiser during a pursuit. The impact left the deputy unconscious and trapped in his cruiser.

Authorities tried to talk to Garrett, who started "violently striking" a deputy in the head with such force that it knocked the deputy on the ground, the sheriff said. Another deputy tried to deploy his Taser twice, but it was ineffective.

Sadly, the "Another deputy" chose the wrong tool for the job at hand and Master Corporal Brian LaVigne won't be enjoying retirement with his family.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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