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This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

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km1125
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This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by km1125 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:16 pm

Didn't know "we" passed another law allowing Civil Forfeiture!! This BS needs to stop. Any of these kinds of funds seized should be returned if there isn't a criminal conviction connected with the seizure!!

New Michigan Law Lets Cops Seize Cash At Airports, No Crime Required

Although summer travel is heating up, anyone traveling with cash may want to think twice about flying in and out of Michigan. Late last month, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer signed two bills (HB 4631 and HB 4632) that expand civil forfeiture at airports, making it much easier for law enforcement to seize—and permanently keep—cash and other valuables from travelers.

“Allowing authorities to take air travelers’ cash without a criminal conviction, simply because they have a large sum of money, is a blatant violation of their rights,” said Institute for Justice Senior Attorney Dan Alban, who co-leads IJ’s National Initiative to End Forfeiture Abuse. “This will lead to innocent people losing their money and is a massive step in the wrong direction by Michigan lawmakers.”

more here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibill ... 6d60295418



MotorCityRadioFreak
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by MotorCityRadioFreak » Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:46 pm

This law ignores the amendment to the Michigan Constitution that we voted on and passed. They need a warrant. The victims need to sue if the authorities cannot show cause.


Remember that “2000 Mules” was concocted by a circus of elephants.
The right needs to stop worry about what’s between people’s legs. Instead, they should focus on what’s between their ears.
Audacity sucks.

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audiophile
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by audiophile » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:26 am

Another reason not to fly...

Meanwhile while the governor takes private jets for $30,000 a pop, taken inappropriately from her election fund...


Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!

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craig11152
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by craig11152 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:23 am

Here is a links to the two bills. They are only two pages each.
I read them and it doesn't appear to me they give the power described above by any means.


https://www.legislature.mi.gov/document ... B-4631.pdf

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/document ... B-4632.pdf


I no longer directly engage trolls

km1125
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by km1125 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:53 am

craig11152 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:23 am
Here is a links to the two bills. They are only two pages each.
I read them and it doesn't appear to me they give the power described above by any means.

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/document ... B-4631.pdf

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/document ... B-4632.pdf
OK, IANAL but...

The first one basically says "property may be seized ... but is not subject to forfeiture" but then adds "This section does not apply ... if .... the seizure of property by law enforcement officers appointed by a public airport authority "

The second one is about seizures related to section 7251 of the same law (Public Health Act 368) but it also stipulates "This section does not apply ... if .... the seizure of property by law enforcement officers appointed by a public airport authority "

Why are they excluding seizures that are done by airport authorities??

What I do find interesting is that both tie to 1978 PA 368, "PUBLIC HEALTH CODE" which appears to be to "protect and promote the public health" and "to regulate occupations, facilities, and agencies affecting the public health" and "to regulate health maintenance organizations". Seems like ANY forfeitures should be directly related to THOSE kind of issues and none
other.



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TC Talks
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by TC Talks » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:14 pm

So are you suggesting that you don't like supporting law enforcement?

These laws were created for one specific reason: to help law enforcement Target very high profile drug trafficking.

Seems like some of you want to have it both ways.


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Matt
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by Matt » Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:37 pm

audiophile wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:26 am
Another reason not to fly...

Meanwhile while the governor takes private jets for $30,000 a pop, taken inappropriately from her election fund...
Only idiots don't fly...



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TC Talks
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by TC Talks » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:32 pm

Matt wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:37 pm
audiophile wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:26 am
Another reason not to fly...

Meanwhile while the governor takes private jets for $30,000 a pop, taken inappropriately from her election fund...
Only idiots don't fly...
I have come to believe Audiophile is Amish. I don't understand how being on a computer fits, but definitely Amish.


© 2022 TC Talks Holdings LP. All Rights Reserved. By reading my content you agree to my privacy policy and my terms of usage. Down with the Man.

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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by MotorCityRadioFreak » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:00 pm

TC Talks wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:32 pm
Matt wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:37 pm
audiophile wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:26 am
Another reason not to fly...

Meanwhile while the governor takes private jets for $30,000 a pop, taken inappropriately from her election fund...
Only idiots don't fly...
I have come to believe Audiophile is Amish. I don't understand how being on a computer fits, but definitely Amish.
Definitely not true.


Remember that “2000 Mules” was concocted by a circus of elephants.
The right needs to stop worry about what’s between people’s legs. Instead, they should focus on what’s between their ears.
Audacity sucks.

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audiophile
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by audiophile » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:17 am

MotorCityRadioFreak wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:00 pm
TC Talks wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:32 pm
Matt wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:37 pm
audiophile wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:26 am
Another reason not to fly...

Meanwhile while the governor takes private jets for $30,000 a pop, taken inappropriately from her election fund...
Only idiots don't fly...
I have come to believe Audiophile is Amish. I don't understand how being on a computer fits, but definitely Amish.
Definitely not true.
Thanks MCRF!

This whole Amish thing is making me LOL.

I do fly, but only when there is no other way.

I would never trade the monster diesel sipping car for cramped seat and body a pat down on a fly-by-wire plane..


Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!

km1125
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by km1125 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:17 am

TC Talks wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:14 pm
So are you suggesting that you don't like supporting law enforcement?

These laws were created for one specific reason: to help law enforcement Target very high profile drug trafficking.

Seems like some of you want to have it both ways.
I don't have any problem with the seizures if they are connected to illegal activity. It's when there's NO CONNECTION or even NO PROVEN CONNECTION that's the issue. They can seize just because they think it's "too much" for an individual to have and consider it suspicious. Nevermind that there is NO data and NO history of that individual being involved in ANY criminal activity of ANY kind.

Here's another case that's currently being fought. Only fought though because it involves a LOT of money and a LOT of wealthy folks with the resources to try and fight it. "Normal" folks wouldn't have a chance. I'll acknowledge there might be SOME folks in this case that deserve to have these assets seized, but really in this case the "authorities" are on a fishing expedition to see what they can find, rather than looking for evidence tied to crimes they're prosecuting or investigating. I really wonder if ANY of the Feds involved in this will be held accountable for their actions regardless if the assets are returned to their owners?
FBI Seizes $86 Million From Safe-Deposit Boxes, "Permanently Confiscated"
The FBI raided nearly 1,400 safe-deposit boxes at the U.S. Private Vaults store in Beverly Hills.

The Feds rummaged through the personal belongings of a jazz saxophone player, an interior designer, a retired doctor, two Century City lawyers, a flooring contractor, and hundreds of others. They took photos of items like password lists, credit cards, prenuptial agreements, pay stubs, immigration and vaccination records, heirlooms, bank statements, and even a will. Agents even discovered cremated human remains in one of the boxes.

Newly unsealed court documents have shown that FBI agents misled the judge who signed the warrant to raid the safe-deposit boxes. They did not disclose the fact that they planned to permanently confiscate everything inside every box that had at least $5,000 in cash or goods. The justification for the confiscation was the presumption that hundreds of unknown box holders were storing assets that may or may not be tied to unknown crimes. It took a total of five days for agents to finish filling their evidence bags. They collected more than $86 million in cash, gold, silver, rare coins, gem-studded jewelry, and plenty of expensive watches. The U.S. attorney's office tried to block public disclosure of court papers that exposed the deception, but the judge rejected the request to keep the documents sealed.

The deception originally came to light in FBI documents and depositions of agents in class action lawsuits by box holders who claim the raid violated their rights. Court filings also revealed that the federal agents defied restrictions put in place by U.S. Magistrate Judge Steve Kim by searching through the owners' belongings for evidence of crimes.

Robert Frommer, a lawyer who is representing nearly 400 of the box holders, had this to say about the situation:

"The government did not know what was in those boxes, who owned them, or what, if anything, those people had done. That's why the warrant application did not even attempt to argue there was probable cause to seize and forfeit box renters' property."

The two-year investigation opened in 2019. The FBI LA office leaders believed that U.S. Private Vaults had become a magnet for criminals hiding their stolen goods in their boxes. The business was formally charged with conspiracy to sell drugs and launder money.

The FBI and the U.S. attorney's office deny any wrongdoing, saying that they had no obligation to disclose their plans for indiscriminate confiscation to the judge. They defended their actions on the blanket assumption that every customer was hiding crime-tainted assets.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...bep_csid=57521



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TC Talks
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by TC Talks » Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:31 pm

That's why we have the court system...

How many people of color get arrested just for the color of their skin? I haven't once seen you express outrage about that atrocity and they are much less capable of getting out of jail then these people storing millions of dollars in a safety deposit box.

You seem to have a two-part sense of Injustice.


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MWmetalhead
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by MWmetalhead » Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:30 pm

Civil asset forfeiture has been abused for far too long by law enforcement agencies.

100% agree with km1125 here.

We also need to dramatically overhaul so-called "Qualified Immunity." That concept has been applied much more broadly than the Supreme Court likely envisioned when it ruled on the question in the early 80's. Government officials or employees who willfully harm others need to be held to the same criminal and tort standards as the common citizen.


Fire Dwane Casey!

km1125
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by km1125 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:21 am

MWmetalhead wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:30 pm
Civil asset forfeiture has been abused for far too long by law enforcement agencies.

100% agree with km1125 here.

We also need to dramatically overhaul so-called "Qualified Immunity." That concept has been applied much more broadly than the Supreme Court likely envisioned when it ruled on the question in the early 80's. Government officials or employees who willfully harm others need to be held to the same criminal and tort standards as the common citizen.
I don't think the Qualified Immunity really protects them rom criminal charges, but that's up to the prosecutor to pursue and many don't because of their working relationships. They are limited (or barred) from tort/civil actions though and, while that might need to be modified, is there for an important reason.



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MWmetalhead
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Re: This Civil Forfeiture BS needs to stop!!

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:01 am

Those working in an official capacity, in most cases, should not have greater legal protection than the ordinary citizen.

I recognize that frivolous tort lawsuits is a risk. The way to dissuade those is to have penalties for litigants and lawyers who file such lawsuits.


Fire Dwane Casey!

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