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Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

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km1125
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Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by km1125 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:58 am

Just wondering. If this amendment gets on the ballot and passes this November, does it actually give some rights to the father of an unborn child with the first sentence (bolded)?

It definitely places limits on what the legislature can do, and allows for SOME regulation, but I'm wondering if by using the words "Every individual" instead of "a pregnant individual" actually grants some State Constitutional rights to the fathers. I've also wondering if the contemporary usage of "we're pregnant" referring to both the father and mother might also create rights for the father as one of the "pregnant individuals"
Article 1, Section 28 Right to Reproductive Freedom

(1) Every individual has a fundamental right to reproductive freedom, which entails the right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy, including but not limited to prenatal care, childbirth, postpartum care, contraception, sterilization, abortion care, miscarriage management, and infertility care. An individual's right to reproductive freedom shall not be denied, burdened, nor infringed upon unless justified by a compelling state interest achieved by the least restrictive means. Notwithstanding the above, the state may regulate the provision of abortion care after fetal viability, provided that in no circumstance shall the state prohibit an abortion that, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional, is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of the pregnant individual.

(2) The state shall not discriminate in the protection or enforcement of this fundamental right.

(3) The state shall not penalize, prosecute, or otherwise take adverse action against an individual based on their actual, potential, perceived, or alleged pregnancy outcomes, including but not limited to miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion, nor shall the state penalize, prosecute, or otherwise take adverse action against someone for aiding or assisting a pregnant individual in exercising their right to reproductive freedom with their voluntary consent.

(4) For the purposes of this section:

A state interest is "compelling" only if it is for the limited purpose of protecting the health of an individual seeking care, consistent with accepted clinical standards of practice and evidence-based medicine, and does not infringe on that individual's autonomous decision-making.
"Fetal viability" means: the point in pregnancy when, in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional and based on the particular facts of the case, there is a significant likelihood of the fetus's sustained survival outside the uterus without the application of extraordinary medical measures.
(5) This section shall be self-executing. Any provision of this section held invalid shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section.[11]



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by audiophile » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:28 am

As has been discussed already in RTL circles, that it strips the parents' rights away for minors, so I think in the same way the man has no say.


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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by Rate This » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:40 am

audiophile wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:28 am
As has been discussed already in RTL circles, that it strips the parents' rights away for minors, so I think in the same way the man has no say.
Beats Florida…



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by km1125 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:15 pm

audiophile wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:28 am
As has been discussed already in RTL circles, that it strips the parents' rights away for minors, so I think in the same way the man has no say.
Not sure why you say that. This question isn't about the parents. The father certainly is a part of that particular reproductive cycle but the parents are not. Specifically reading the language as written, it appears there's an argument to be made that the reproductive decisions should include the father.

You're right in that it strips away parental rights. Hopefully there will be a decent educational advertisement campaign that makes that part clear to the voters.



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by A1B1C1D1 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:14 pm

This should be on the ballot, though the spacing issue is embarrassing. Will the state supreme court sit on their hands hoping it hurts Republicans in an election cycle that they were expected to be strong?



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by MWmetalhead » Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:39 pm

Breaking:
MI Supreme Court has ordered the proposal on the ballot, thus overturning the 2 votes to 2 votes deadlock at the Board of Canvassers.

Source: WXYZ Detroit, as reported on air five minutes ago.


Fire Dwane Casey!

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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by bmw » Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:52 pm

km - You make a compelling argument. And if this is approved by voters, it is going to create some real legal headaches, though maybe not how you think it will. Here's how I see this playing out:

As a preliminary matter, Constitutional rights only place restrictions on government officials, not on individuals. So, if this passes, a father cannot argue that a mother is somehow violating his Constitutional rights to have a say-so in how the pregnancy ends (ie, in birth or in abortion) if her wishes are different than his. In other words, if the mother wants to have an abortion and the father wants the child to be born, there's nothing the father will be able to do about it. Same for visa-versa (a father could never force a mother to abort a baby).

Where this WILL matter is when it comes to paying child support. Imagine this scenario: Boy gets girl pregnant. Mother wants to have the baby. Father wants nothing to do with it and encourages mother to have an abortion. Mother refuses. Baby is born, and mother takes father to court seeking an order forcing him to pay child support. Now it gets interesting. Father argues that forcing him to pay child support is a violation of his Constitutional right to reproductive freedom, including his " right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy." He argues that because the mother did not honor his wishes to abort the baby, he has no legal obligation to pay child support, and that as such, the court cannot force him to do so.

Mark my words, this will be a legal defense against paying child support if this passes. And I have no idea how a court would rule on such an argument.



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by Rate This » Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:29 pm

bmw wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:52 pm
km - You make a compelling argument. And if this is approved by voters, it is going to create some real legal headaches, though maybe not how you think it will. Here's how I see this playing out:

As a preliminary matter, Constitutional rights only place restrictions on government officials, not on individuals. So, if this passes, a father cannot argue that a mother is somehow violating his Constitutional rights to have a say-so in how the pregnancy ends (ie, in birth or in abortion) if her wishes are different than his. In other words, if the mother wants to have an abortion and the father wants the child to be born, there's nothing the father will be able to do about it. Same for visa-versa (a father could never force a mother to abort a baby).

Where this WILL matter is when it comes to paying child support. Imagine this scenario: Boy gets girl pregnant. Mother wants to have the baby. Father wants nothing to do with it and encourages mother to have an abortion. Mother refuses. Baby is born, and mother takes father to court seeking an order forcing him to pay child support. Now it gets interesting. Father argues that forcing him to pay child support is a violation of his Constitutional right to reproductive freedom, including his " right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy." He argues that because the mother did not honor his wishes to abort the baby, he has no legal obligation to pay child support, and that as such, the court cannot force him to do so.

Mark my words, this will be a legal defense against paying child support if this passes. And I have no idea how a court would rule on such an argument.
My best guess at a ruling:
It exists now so pay up.



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by km1125 » Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:07 pm

bmw wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:52 pm
km - You make a compelling argument. And if this is approved by voters, it is going to create some real legal headaches, though maybe not how you think it will. Here's how I see this playing out:

As a preliminary matter, Constitutional rights only place restrictions on government officials, not on individuals. So, if this passes, a father cannot argue that a mother is somehow violating his Constitutional rights to have a say-so in how the pregnancy ends (ie, in birth or in abortion) if her wishes are different than his. In other words, if the mother wants to have an abortion and the father wants the child to be born, there's nothing the father will be able to do about it. Same for visa-versa (a father could never force a mother to abort a baby).

Where this WILL matter is when it comes to paying child support. Imagine this scenario: Boy gets girl pregnant. Mother wants to have the baby. Father wants nothing to do with it and encourages mother to have an abortion. Mother refuses. Baby is born, and mother takes father to court seeking an order forcing him to pay child support. Now it gets interesting. Father argues that forcing him to pay child support is a violation of his Constitutional right to reproductive freedom, including his " right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy." He argues that because the mother did not honor his wishes to abort the baby, he has no legal obligation to pay child support, and that as such, the court cannot force him to do so.

Mark my words, this will be a legal defense against paying child support if this passes. And I have no idea how a court would rule on such an argument.
Not so sure about your paragraph #2. Plenty of folks (and companies) have been sued successfully for "violating a person's Constitutional Rights". We'll have to see how that unfolds.

But I fully agree with the next paragraph. It's just going to take the right case and right lawyer to set the precedent.



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by paul8539 » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:57 am

OK, so
"(1) Every individual has a fundamental right to reproductive freedom, which entails the right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy ...."

I get one of my girlfriends pregnant. I want her to have the baby; that is my 'reproductive freedom'. How do I keep her from getting an abortion? This is "effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy "



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by Circle Seven » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:10 pm

paul8539 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:57 am
I get one of my girlfriends pregnant. I want her to have the baby; that is my 'reproductive freedom'. How do I keep her from getting an abortion? This is "effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy "
You make a valid point. If she chooses to abort "behind his back", not much he can do about it.
I took the liberty of telling an attorney about bmw's second part of his post. About the father arguing he shouldn't pay support because he wanted an abortion.

After reading Prop 3 and getting back to me, he thinks it's an angle some of his fellow attorneys would be glad to take the money and argue it. Win or lose, a barrister that took that argument to court would become a household name. That's always good for business.



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by km1125 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:47 am

Circle Seven wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:10 pm
paul8539 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:57 am
I get one of my girlfriends pregnant. I want her to have the baby; that is my 'reproductive freedom'. How do I keep her from getting an abortion? This is "effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy "
You make a valid point. If she chooses to abort "behind his back", not much he can do about it.
I took the liberty of telling an attorney about bmw's second part of his post. About the father arguing he shouldn't pay support because he wanted an abortion.

After reading Prop 3 and getting back to me, he thinks it's an angle some of his fellow attorneys would be glad to take the money and argue it. Win or lose, a barrister that took that argument to court would become a household name. That's always good for business.
That's interesting and what I had suspected. It's going to surprise a LOT of folks who voted for this amendment if/when it passes. That's just ONE thing that would fall under the "unintended consequences". There are many more. It's just going to take the right case and right motivated lawyer(s).

Just imagine how hard that would be to undo when it's in the State Constitution vs if that same language would have been instituted via the legislative process.



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by bmw » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:23 pm

Circle Seven wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:10 pm
I took the liberty of telling an attorney about bmw's second part of his post. About the father arguing he shouldn't pay support because he wanted an abortion.

After reading Prop 3 and getting back to me, he thinks it's an angle some of his fellow attorneys would be glad to take the money and argue it. Win or lose, a barrister that took that argument to court would become a household name. That's always good for business.
So if this happens, do I get credit for planting the seed?



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by km1125 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:51 pm

bmw wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:23 pm
Circle Seven wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:10 pm
I took the liberty of telling an attorney about bmw's second part of his post. About the father arguing he shouldn't pay support because he wanted an abortion.

After reading Prop 3 and getting back to me, he thinks it's an angle some of his fellow attorneys would be glad to take the money and argue it. Win or lose, a barrister that took that argument to court would become a household name. That's always good for business.
So if this happens, do I get credit for planting the seed?
Unintended pun?



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Re: Does the "Reproductive Freedom" amendment give rights to men?

Post by TC Talks » Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:48 pm

Anything we can do to reduce unwanted children, I am all for it.


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