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WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
innate-in-you
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:54 am

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by innate-in-you » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:57 pm

That's weird.

My understanding was that ATSC 3.0 uses COFDM modulation.

8VSB is used for ATSC 1.0.

COFDM uses VERY MANY carriers, all with a slow modulation rate.

8VSB uses a very fast modulation rate (measured in MHz).

The superiority of COFDM lies in its lower symbol rate.

In 8VSB/ATSC 1.0, a reflection from a very nearby object can corrupt the signal.

In COFDM/ATSC 3.0, any reflected signal will have very little effect on the received signal, unless the signal is reflected by an object that is at considerable distance - and if said object is at a distance, the reflected signal will usually be much weaker.

In the years when the ATSC was devising standards for digital TV, it seems that the planning was turning very slowly.

I remember reading an article about digital TV in an article in Channels Of Communications magazine in the late 1970s.

Sinclair had studied the modulation schemes being evaluated for DTV and tried to convince the FCC to go with a form of COFDM.

This puts me in the odd situation of agreeing with Sinclair on something.

Outside of the technology, I'm more like a Graham guy.



YpsiGuy
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:00 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by YpsiGuy » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:54 am

antennacanuck wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:12 pm
Ok. I don’t know much of these things, however, I do have an ATSC 3.0 tuner on my Sony X900H. In looking at the signal diagnostic affer a rescan on Dec. 7th, it shows this:

20.1 - Physical Channel 25 - Modulation 8VSB - 539.994 MHz
20.2 - Physical Channel 32 - Modulation 8VSB - 580.993 MHz
20.3 - Physical Channel 7 - Modulation 8VSB - 176.998 MHz

Am I getting the re-mapped 1.0, the new 3.0, or a mix of both?
You are getting the ATSC 1.0 signals of WMYD.

You aren’t missing much from what rabbitears.info is reporting of WMYD’s ATSC 3.0 broadcasts. Five main channel feeds, three of which are 720p and two 1080p.

https://www.sony.com/electronics/suppor ... s/00245692

You may want to ask Sony support.



szmigiel
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:52 am

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by szmigiel » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:30 am

YpsiGuy wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:14 am
The stations that run a ATSC 3.0 feed have to simulcast it in ATSC 1.0 for five years, per FCC rules. I’m definitely in no rush.
There is time, but I have a feeling once the major stations all convert to ATSC 3.0 in about 2 or 3 years, then all the ATSC 1.0 channels will be stacked up in low quality on a few channels.

I also wonder if that 5 year agreement is for just the main channel, and not for the sub-channels they may carry. Mostly because during year 5 I can't see how they will be able to carry all the channels in ATSC 3.0 and ATSC 1.0.



rainlake
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:17 am

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by rainlake » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:11 am

I do not think Sony has enabled ATSC 3.0 on X900H yet
YpsiGuy wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:54 am
antennacanuck wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:12 pm
Ok. I don’t know much of these things, however, I do have an ATSC 3.0 tuner on my Sony X900H. In looking at the signal diagnostic affer a rescan on Dec. 7th, it shows this:

20.1 - Physical Channel 25 - Modulation 8VSB - 539.994 MHz
20.2 - Physical Channel 32 - Modulation 8VSB - 580.993 MHz
20.3 - Physical Channel 7 - Modulation 8VSB - 176.998 MHz

Am I getting the re-mapped 1.0, the new 3.0, or a mix of both?
You are getting the ATSC 1.0 signals of WMYD.

You aren’t missing much from what rabbitears.info is reporting of WMYD’s ATSC 3.0 broadcasts. Five main channel feeds, three of which are 720p and two 1080p.

https://www.sony.com/electronics/suppor ... s/00245692

You may want to ask Sony support.



rainlake
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:17 am

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by rainlake » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:14 am

Well, they are doing just opposite right now. ATSC 3.0 stacked in one channel with very low(3.6Mbps ish) bitrate to make sure they have the 5 year clock get started. all channels are washed out.

I understand they do not have much 4K/HDR video just yet. but please give it a higher picture quality at least match what they have on ATSC 1

szmigiel wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:30 am
YpsiGuy wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:14 am
The stations that run a ATSC 3.0 feed have to simulcast it in ATSC 1.0 for five years, per FCC rules. I’m definitely in no rush.
There is time, but I have a feeling once the major stations all convert to ATSC 3.0 in about 2 or 3 years, then all the ATSC 1.0 channels will be stacked up in low quality on a few channels.

I also wonder if that 5 year agreement is for just the main channel, and not for the sub-channels they may carry. Mostly because during year 5 I can't see how they will be able to carry all the channels in ATSC 3.0 and ATSC 1.0.



YpsiGuy
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:00 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by YpsiGuy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:21 pm

rainlake wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:14 am
Well, they are doing just opposite right now. ATSC 3.0 stacked in one channel with very low(3.6Mbps ish) bitrate to make sure they have the 5 year clock get started. all channels are washed out.

I understand they do not have much 4K/HDR video just yet. but please give it a higher picture quality at least match what they have on ATSC 1

szmigiel wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:30 am
YpsiGuy wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:14 am
The stations that run a ATSC 3.0 feed have to simulcast it in ATSC 1.0 for five years, per FCC rules. I’m definitely in no rush.
There is time, but I have a feeling once the major stations all convert to ATSC 3.0 in about 2 or 3 years, then all the ATSC 1.0 channels will be stacked up in low quality on a few channels.

I also wonder if that 5 year agreement is for just the main channel, and not for the sub-channels they may carry. Mostly because during year 5 I can't see how they will be able to carry all the channels in ATSC 3.0 and ATSC 1.0.
Looks like its on air to be mostly a test bed for the automotive manufacturers and their in-vehicle entertainment systems.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/nextg ... 58C7B23AE9

I am definitely in no rush now to get an ATSC 3.0 tuner.



km1125
Posts: 3570
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by km1125 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:31 pm

While watching 7.3 tonight, they flashed up a banner in the lower third for a while ...

WMYD 20.2 DETROIT

Appears at the top of the hour

????



innate-in-you
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:54 am

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by innate-in-you » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:54 pm

You're getting WMYD's Channel 20.1 stream, since it is owned by Scripps - that is, the same WMYD stream on RF 25 since the repack.

20.2 is transmitted by WDIV's plant, on Channel 32

20.3 is transmitted by WJBK's plant on Channel 7.

TV sets store the channel information in memory - storing the actual channels, and the virtual channels, for every station it could receive.

When you tap your channel into remote, it goes to your chosen actual channel, presents the chosen picture and sound, and displays the virtual channel.



km1125
Posts: 3570
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by km1125 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:35 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:54 pm
You're getting WMYD's Channel 20.1 stream, since it is owned by Scripps - that is, the same WMYD stream on RF 25 since the repack.

20.2 is transmitted by WDIV's plant, on Channel 32

20.3 is transmitted by WJBK's plant on Channel 7.

TV sets store the channel information in memory - storing the actual channels, and the virtual channels, for every station it could receive.

When you tap your channel into remote, it goes to your chosen actual channel, presents the chosen picture and sound, and displays the virtual channel.
Was that in response to my post?



innate-in-you
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:54 am

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by innate-in-you » Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:56 am

Yes.

Forgive me if you already knew.



km1125
Posts: 3570
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by km1125 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:14 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:56 am
Yes.

Forgive me if you already knew.
Just because they are co-sharing a broadcast transmitter, do they have to adopt that station's station identifier?? And even if so, why would they put the wrong station identifier on the subchannel (i.e., placing "20.2" on the 7.3 subchannel)?

To clarify, in my original post, WXYZ was placing a "WMYD 20.2" station identifier tag on their own WXYZ 7.3 subchannel.

You post would address whatever station identifiers are placed on 20.1, 20.2 and 20.3, as they are now being broadcast by the WJBK, WDIV and WXYZ transmitters. Should those three channels have to identify as being from WJBK, WDIV and WZYX, or can they continue to identify as WMYD? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, but I don't know the specific language of the regs.

btw... I had also sent an email to the engineering guys at WZYX and the problem seems to have been fixed.



tvbobn
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by tvbobn » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:54 pm

Channel sharing sounds easy on paper, but it's a bit tricky to actually pull off without any issues. Doing it on several different stations would be even harder.

Once WXYZ reprogrammed their encoder to share the bandwidth with WMYD, what was WXYZ 7.3 sub-channel became WMYD 20.2 sub-channel. The legal ID for that sub-channel is WMYD 20.2 Detroit.

Same with the other stations that are channel sharing. If you could watch WMYD (3.0), those channels ID with their respective stations too.


Frontier Airlines SUCKS! They're a bunch of thieves. Don't fly with them!

SolidGoldDancers
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:03 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by SolidGoldDancers » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:38 pm

YpsiGuy wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:21 pm

Looks like its on air to be mostly a test bed for the automotive manufacturers and their in-vehicle entertainment systems.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/nextg ... 58C7B23AE9

I am definitely in no rush now to get an ATSC 3.0 tuner.
Apparently TV executives haven't heard of Verizon, AT&T nor T-Mobile. There is nothing that prevents them from implementing a multicast distribution over their cellular IP networks.

These people are throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks before they end up having to give up more spectrum and paying for carriage over Netflix.



User avatar
SolarMax
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:59 pm
Location: 313

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by SolarMax » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:36 pm

SolidGoldDancers wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:38 pm
Apparently TV executives haven't heard of Verizon, AT&T nor T-Mobile. There is nothing that prevents them from implementing a multicast distribution over their cellular IP networks.

These people are throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks before they end up having to give up more spectrum and paying for carriage over Netflix.
Single Frequency Networks.
Read all about it.

There are tie-ins with 5G networks included in the 3.0 specs that providers will be able to take advantage of.
This is all just getting started, in the first stages of implementation. The promised cool stuff will become more available once everything has cut over to NextGen, Maybe.



SolidGoldDancers
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:03 pm

Re: WMYD will switchover to ATSC 3.0 today at 10AM EST, 12/07.

Post by SolidGoldDancers » Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:47 pm

SolarMax wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:36 pm
SolidGoldDancers wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:38 pm
Apparently TV executives haven't heard of Verizon, AT&T nor T-Mobile. There is nothing that prevents them from implementing a multicast distribution over their cellular IP networks.

These people are throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks before they end up having to give up more spectrum and paying for carriage over Netflix.
Single Frequency Networks.
Read all about it.

There are tie-ins with 5G networks included in the 3.0 specs that providers will be able to take advantage of.
This is all just getting started, in the first stages of implementation. The promised cool stuff will become more available once everything has cut over to NextGen, Maybe.
Not seeing a lot of potential in that pitch deck aside from private/paid video. Broadcasting essentially, which is a core competency and I think there is money to be made there. Streaming TV services have their weakness, and traditional linear cable TV is a cesspool of poor and expensive programming. This could be the disruption for that market.

"Unique interactive content to mobile devices" is dead on arrival unless the NAB finds that the third time is the charm when trying to get the FCC to compel device manufacturers to include broadcast tuners in their products. That has gone over like a lead balloon in the past and I see no reason it will be met favorably this time. No one is buying anything to plug into their phones and tablets to make this happen, the last iteration of mobile ATSC should drive home that point.

I guess asymmetric software updates for in-dash systems might be a thing despite the auto manufacturers thirst for vehicle and driver metadata. Vehicle manufacturers are being required to give up some of the control of that experience to Apple and Google, so even if these pilots pay dividends, I'm not sure that landscape won't shift the need for this service into obsolescense. Try as they might, in-dash GPS has been supplanted by smart phones.

The rest of it are novel uses of a big fat IP pipe thrown into the sky. I just think that pipe is fifteen years too late. That said, I do have a new HD Homerun on order.



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