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Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
Splouge
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Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:54 pm

EDIT: 30 would be impossible, I misunderstood the protected contours' meaning and didn't know the required ratio wasn't 1:1. I thought that the 41 dBu contour was the furthest that any station was protected, but now that I've read 47 CFR § 73.623, I know that that is not the case.

The only obstacles on UHF 30 are WNEM and CFTV. But by using this directional pattern on UHF 30: https://postimg.cc/sB9D3sCG WHNE could still stay at 15 kW, at their current height, and not have 41 dBu contour overlap with WNEM or CFTV. (EDIT: Just found out CFTV isn't even protected, according to CRTC Decision 2003-581) The signal would be strong in Downriver, Northville, Macomb Township, and western and central Detroit. But the weaker areas like Windsor and Pontiac will still be able to receive WHNE better with the right kind of antenna. They'll also get a more stable signal than they will if WHNE moves to Low-VHF, thanks to all the man-made noise on Low-V. And many viewers, myself included, want our GetTV!

Someone please bring this to the attention of the good folks at WHNE.

EDIT: A more manageable pattern, but with less coverage, would be this one: https://postimg.cc/7C4gVn4W
Last edited by Splouge on Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.



fuzzpower
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by fuzzpower » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:38 pm

Canada will protest.



Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:17 pm

fuzzpower wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:38 pm
Canada will protest.
Darn, maybe they could try for 36 then? All that they would have to worry about are WAQP and WMNT. I think they should still try for 30 as I don't think CFTV is even protected. I think they're just a Canadian LPTV,
Last edited by Splouge on Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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RingtailedFox
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by RingtailedFox » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:28 pm

I also agree on asking for UHF 30, with UHF 36 as a fallback. This *CAN* be done, if there's a will for it! come on, TVBobN... you have our support!

Even when WHTV was on the air, whenever i tuned in to UHF 34 while my antenna was pointed south, i picked up... not CFTV-DT, but WHQS-DT from Cleveland! CFTV's signal doesn't even make it to Essex, despite its transmitter being in Cottam. It's aimed southeast towards Leamington to cover the town nicely. the signal covers from Woodslee in the north, to Kingsville in the southwest, and to Wheatley in the east, but that's it.

As for the CRTC/Industry Canada protesting... i don't think they would, because of so little signal leaking across the border, and the fact that both signals are unprotected low-power digital facilities. They didn't complain when WPXD moved to Southfield from Ann Arbor and they didn't complain when WUDT kept hopping back and forth between UHF 23 and VHF 8....


~ The Legendary Raccoon-Fox has spoken!

Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:40 pm

Plus, as for the Canada situation, WUDL-LD and CIII-29 overlap each other. And CIII-29 IS protected, unlike CFTV. I do happen to know that my proposed pattern does NOT overlap CFTV's 1kW nondirectional permit. I'm going to make an actual coverage map of the 41 dBu contour using the FCC's contour calculator and Maps Plus. Even though the full coverage map is not done, I can tell you for sure there is no overlap.

We believe in you, TVBobN.



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windsor
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by windsor » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:25 pm

Your right about rf34 never ever rec. CFTV. Mainly WQHS Clev. my way too.

Great idea for WHNE to keep them off VHF.............


WLLZ needs to bring Sreaming Scott to Morning's on 106.7

innate-in-you
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by innate-in-you » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:50 pm

Another strange thing about WHNE-LD's application:
The filing refers to channel 3 as the "only channel available".
According to the FCC website, there is now no channel 2 facility within 475km*. On channel 2, they could have an omnidirectional facility.

While I'm here, I wonder if two television stations should still be hobbled by the old analog separation rules.
WADL had to build northeast of all other Detroit stations because of eighth-adjacent and fourteenth-adjacent conflicts with WGTE and WDHO (now WNWO) respectively.
Consider that an antenna aimed at Southfield is an antenna aimed away from WADL, unless one is either ENE of Clinton Township or WSW of Southfield.
Today, there is no good reason that WADL can't be in the Southfield area (sure, they may have to reduce power in some directions, but being closer to the center of the market would more than make up for that).

WLMB in Toledo is in a similar situation. When channels 54 and 60 were withdrawn from the allocation table (reassigned as class B channels in Windsor, the former used by CBEFT before CBC decided to shaft the lingual minority), they were replaced with 36 and 40. In analog, these were fourth-adjacent with each other, locking them out of Oregon (OH). Their DTV allocation would up on channel 5 (that allocation was originally for WGTE, but the allocations were swapped). WLMB built in Jasper, MI, 25 miles west of Toledo in the wrong direction.

With the analog signal of WEWS Cleveland long gone, they would be far better off atop One Seagate despite the slight reduction in height.

(* 475km is the largest radius the FCC Search can be set to).
Last edited by innate-in-you on Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:28 am, edited 4 times in total.



Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:59 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:50 pm
Another strange thing about WHNE-LD's application:
The filing refers to channel 3 as the "only channel available".
According to the FCC website, there is now no channel 2 facility within 475km*. On channel 2, they could have an omnidirectional facility.
That would be heck, the interference is worse on 2.

Here is a pretty accurate (but not perfect) 41 dBu contour map of WHNE-LD on 30 using my pattern, also included are WNEM and CFTV. WNEM is nondirectional here because my main goal was to demonstrate WHNE. This is pretty accurate, but again, not perfect. The map has a slight bit more land than the actual contour would, even then, no overlap!: https://postimg.cc/94tV9pyp

It's a pretty good map in my opinion, while the contour may be smaller than the VHF contour, it'll do better in reality.
Last edited by Splouge on Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.



innate-in-you
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by innate-in-you » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:45 am

Splouge wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:59 pm
innate-in-you wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:50 pm
Another strange thing about WHNE-LD's application:
The filing refers to channel 3 as the "only channel available".
According to the FCC website, there is now no channel 2 facility within 475km*. On channel 2, they could have an omnidirectional facility.
That would be heck, the interference is worse on 2.

Not much interference anymore, unless Sporadic-E is in. 2 may have a little more noise than 3, but not that much.
Here is a pretty accurate (but not perfect) 41 dBu contour map of WHNE-LD on 30 using my pattern, also included are WNEM and CFTV. WNEM is nondirectional here because my main goal was to demonstrate WHNE. This is pretty accurate, but again, not perfect. The map has a slight bit more land than the actual contour would, even then, no overlap!: https://postimg.cc/94tV9pyp

It's a pretty good map in my opinion, while the contour may be smaller, it'll do better than VHF 3 in reality.
Channel 30 would be better than a directional channel 3.

Those contours touch each other. How many dBμ are the WNEM and CFTV contours?



Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:00 am

To me, noise is the same as interference. However, it isn't the other way around.

The contours are all 41 dBu, and there's no overlap, you may have to zoom in to see the fine detail near CFTV's edge.



innate-in-you
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by innate-in-you » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:01 am

The way I read 47CFR §73.623, one DTV station is said to be causing interference to another if it is one fifteenth as strong as the other station at its 41dBμ contour.

Two stations at 41dBμ in the same place would be a mess.



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MWmetalhead
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:21 am

That axe blade shaped directional pattern would be highly difficult to implement in practice. The manufacturing cost of a directional transmitting antenna built to those specifications would likely be very expensive, assuming the design is even feasible for a video signal.

Even if that pattern *were* feasible, I am not so sure going co-channel with WNEM is the best idea. That could lead to reception issues in places like White Lake Twp., Milford, Waterford, Clarkston, Hartland, Highland Twp., Brighton, etc. True, the co-channel effects probably would be less bothersome than the reception issues caused by usage of VHF 3. Many indoor and even some outdoor antenna designs these days are designed for reception of only channels VHF 7 & above.

Ringtail - I don't believe UHF 36 is an option. All stations will operate on UHF 35 & below once the repack is fully implemented, if I'm not mistaken.


Caroline Beasley is ruining WRIF. What a bitch!!!

szmigiel
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by szmigiel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:21 am

How far does 51 CHCH-2 out of London actually reach? I have never picked them up on a scan, or even seen a weak signal. They are suppose to move to 14 where WKBD 50 was. I wonder why WHNE couldn't actually be located at 14.



Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:28 am

szmigiel wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:21 am
How far does 51 CHCH-2 out of London actually reach? I have never picked them up on a scan, or even seen a weak signal. They are suppose to move to 14 where WKBD 50 was. I wonder why WHNE couldn't actually be located at 14.
WLAJ, that's why



szmigiel
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by szmigiel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:53 am

I didn't think WHNE signal would be strong enough to interfere with a station out of Lansing.



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