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DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

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Bryce
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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Bryce » Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:52 pm

bmw wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:30 pm
The words "and" and "or" have very specific meanings in the field of logic, and their meanings apply the same way in statutory interpretation.
Maybe you could enlist former President Clinton's help to explain this to these numb skulls. His explanation of the meaning of the word "is" to the grand jury during the Lewinski fiasco was a thing of beauty.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:40 am

craig11152 wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:37 pm
Liberals are handed a golden opportunity to walk the walk and instead of embracing the opportunity all they do is point figures.
As morally disingenuous as republicans are in this mess Democrats are worse because they are hypocritical.
What walk are they supposedly needing to walk?



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:41 am

Bryce wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:52 pm
bmw wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:30 pm
The words "and" and "or" have very specific meanings in the field of logic, and their meanings apply the same way in statutory interpretation.
Maybe you could enlist former President Clinton's help to explain this to these numb skulls. His explanation of the meaning of the word "is" to the grand jury during the Lewinski fiasco was a thing of beauty.
An infamous one at that. :rollin



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:44 am

bmw wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:30 pm
You would both make terrible lawyers. You're still overlooking the AND. Even if you prove that inveigles applies here, that's still only one of the two elements. The other is holding. You have to prove that they were held for ransom, reward, or something similar. They weren't held. They were immediately released.

I don't know how else to explain this. I feel like I'm talking to a couple of brick walls (no offense intended). The words "and" and "or" have very specific meanings in the field of logic, and their meanings apply the same way in statutory interpretation. In the case of kidnapping, there are 2 elements that need to be met. The first element can be satisfied by any of those items in the first list, and the second element can be satisfied by any found in the second list. But you need one from each list, otherwise you have no crime.
Reward is broader than ransom or the narrow standards for human trafficking. If he’s soliciting donations off of this the that is a reward for him. They were not told where they were going and were loaded onto a plane. There was no effort at all to inform them of what was going on or in any other way act in good faith. Including flouting a law that DeSantis himself demanded. $12 Million to remove illegals IN THIS STATE. Not in Texas. So before you get high and mighty about laws let’s discuss the illegality of this stunt under Florida statute. It’s in plain friggin English in the law. Those people had to be removed from Florida. Taking them from Texas and then stopping in Florida for a couple minutes just doesn’t cut it. I’ve mentioned this 4 times now and you absolutely refuse to address it.



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Bryce » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:00 am

To all you folks that want to charge DeSantis, do you think the legal system has two for one deals?
The Biden administration has been quietly flying underage illegal immigrants from Texas to New York late at night for more than two months in an effort to resettle the tens of thousands of migrants taken into custody at the border in recent weeks, according to a new report
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden ... ar-AAPHQly


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:04 am

Bryce wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:00 am
To all you folks that want to charge DeSantis, do you think the legal system has two for one deals?
The Biden administration has been quietly flying underage illegal immigrants from Texas to New York late at night for more than two months in an effort to resettle the tens of thousands of migrants taken into custody at the border in recent weeks, according to a new report
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden ... ar-AAPHQly
There’s a large difference between resettling people and taking them on false pretenses to a place completely unannounced and dropping them off with an address for “work” that is a parking lot. That difference is communication which boils down to one being in good faith and above board (Biden) and the other being in bad faith and potentially legally hairy (Abbott, DeSantis and co.). The two things are simply not the same even if the main action is similar. And the Biden Administration isn’t doing it to score points with the base as the others are. Red herring.

Plus DeSantis VIOLATED HIS OWN LAW HE ASKED FOR. You gonna join bmw in ignoring this inconvenient fact?



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by craig11152 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:11 am

Rate This wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:40 am
craig11152 wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:37 pm
Liberals are handed a golden opportunity to walk the walk and instead of embracing the opportunity all they do is point figures.
As morally disingenuous as republicans are in this mess Democrats are worse because they are hypocritical.
What walk are they supposedly needing to walk?
The walk of compassion? Liberals always claim that conservatives lack compassion and they are the party of compassion. It seems to me that liberal compassion for illegal migrants mostly ends at letting them across the border. There have been numerous stories, even from liberal news outlets, in the recent past that some border towns are being overwhelmed and can't accommodate the numbers.
I know one comeback to that is Texas or some other border state is best suited because of proximity to the border and perhaps family. But unless its a holding situation until they are deported back home it's not sustainable to assume everybody who sneaks in has an inherent right to live within X miles of the border. And there doesn't seem to be much liberal will to actually send them back home. So if liberals want them to stay then some sort of distribution needs to happen. And lets be clear I am NOT talking about people here legally. If you are here legally as far as I am concerned you can do whatever you want. The whole issue is people who come here illegally seeking asylum or just sneaking in to the "promised land"
So my walk the walk comment would be an actual proactive effort to bring some of these folks north and east to help them out with shelter, food, money and jobs. So far the response has been reactive when forced upon them.


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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:41 am

craig11152 wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:11 am
Rate This wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:40 am
craig11152 wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:37 pm
Liberals are handed a golden opportunity to walk the walk and instead of embracing the opportunity all they do is point figures.
As morally disingenuous as republicans are in this mess Democrats are worse because they are hypocritical.
What walk are they supposedly needing to walk?
The walk of compassion? Liberals always claim that conservatives lack compassion and they are the party of compassion. It seems to me that liberal compassion for illegal migrants mostly ends at letting them across the border. There have been numerous stories, even from liberal news outlets, in the recent past that some border towns are being overwhelmed and can't accommodate the numbers.
I know one comeback to that is Texas or some other border state is best suited because of proximity to the border and perhaps family. But unless its a holding situation until they are deported back home it's not sustainable to assume everybody who sneaks in has an inherent right to live within X miles of the border. And there doesn't seem to be much liberal will to actually send them back home. So if liberals want them to stay then some sort of distribution needs to happen. And lets be clear I am NOT talking about people here legally. If you are here legally as far as I am concerned you can do whatever you want. The whole issue is people who come here illegally seeking asylum or just sneaking in to the "promised land"
So my walk the walk comment would be an actual proactive effort to bring some of these folks north and east to help them out with shelter, food, money and jobs. So far the response has been reactive when forced upon them.
The key word is forced… no plan no nothing… there was no coordination and that was on purpose. The folks on Martha’s Vineyard sprang into action and got it taken care of. But if you are just gonna send them as a surprise… that’s not acting in good faith. That’s where the uproar is.



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by bmw » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:50 am

RT - you defended FakeAndyStuart's "human trafficking" accusation multiple times. You also defended Hanson's "federal kidnapping" accusation multiple times. I simply responded, demonstrating that his actions quite clearly don't meet every necessary element of either charge. Like I said, I'm trying to respond to every part of the "let's throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" game.

First he's like Hitler sending the Jews to death camps.
No? Ok, he's guilty of human trafficking.
No? Ok, he's guilty of federal kidnapping.
No? Ok, he abused his power under Florida state law by misappropriating funds.

So that's where we're at in this debate. It isn't easy arguing with liberals when they use these tactics. Start with the worst accusation you can think of, and every time you're proven wrong, go with a lesser one. So what Florida statute are you specifically referring to? Please cite it and I'll look at it and respond.



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:30 am

bmw wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:50 am
RT - you defended FakeAndyStuart's "human trafficking" accusation multiple times. You also defended Hanson's "federal kidnapping" accusation multiple times. I simply responded, demonstrating that his actions quite clearly don't meet every necessary element of either charge. Like I said, I'm trying to respond to every part of the "let's throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" game.

First he's like Hitler sending the Jews to death camps.
No? Ok, he's guilty of human trafficking.
No? Ok, he's guilty of federal kidnapping.
No? Ok, he abused his power under Florida state law by misappropriating funds.

So that's where we're at in this debate. It isn't easy arguing with liberals when they use these tactics. Start with the worst accusation you can think of, and every time you're proven wrong, go with a lesser one. So what Florida statute are you specifically referring to? Please cite it and I'll look at it and respond.
State law 117-2… it includes this passage:
From the interest earnings associated with the federal Coronavirus State Fiscal Recovery Fund (Public Law 117-2), the nonrecurring sum of $12,000,000 from the General Revenue Fund is appropriated to the Department of Transportation for Fiscal Year 2021-2022, for implementing a program to facilitate the transport of unauthorized aliens from this state consistent with federal law. The department may, upon the receipt of at least two quotes, negotiate and enter into contracts with private parties, including common carriers, to implement the program.
DeSantis demanded and got this included in a coronavirus related bill. You are all about semantics and specific language with the kidnapping and human trafficking… well FROM THIS STATE is pretty damn clear.

Secondly… I chimed in on the kidnapping and human trafficking. There is a case for kidnapping…. You have merely decided there isn’t and dismissed us.

The third one about this law they passed at his behest is something I organically picked up on. I am not trying to get him on something nor am I using a liberal tactic. I’m actually insulted that you find my actions boiling down to something I was taught at the local liberal conspiracy tactics meeting. What I’m saying is my initial thought was: “Why the hell is FLORIDA transporting people from TEXAS to MASSACHUSETTS? How are migrants I’m TEXAS any of FLORIDA’s business?



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by craig11152 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:42 am

Rate This wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:41 am
The key word is forced… no plan no nothing… there was no coordination and that was on purpose. The folks on Martha’s Vineyard sprang into action and got it taken care of. But if you are just gonna send them as a surprise… that’s not acting in good faith. That’s where the uproar is.
I won't disagree with the above except the key word part. The key word is reactive as opposed to proactive.
Its my opinion (subject to realignment with actual facts) that there hasn't been much in the way of any ongoing proactive attempts by northern liberals to absorb some of the burden.
It reminds me of the abortion thing where liberals will often say that if you are opposed to abortion you should be willing to see these unaborted kids to adulthood.
Well by the same token to the extent you are opposed to mass deportation you should be willing to actively and willingly facilitate these people staying in some degree of comfort.

I might add the southern border states aren't exactly handed a daily or weekly or monthly count of what to expect in the way of "guests"
I will also add nobody knows for sure how big the problem is except that it's bigger than the known count. We don't know how many drunk drivers are out every night we only know how many are caught.


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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by km1125 » Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:51 am

Rate This wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:41 am
The key word is forced… no plan no nothing… there was no coordination and that was on purpose. The folks on Martha’s Vineyard sprang into action and got it taken care of. But if you are just gonna send them as a surprise… that’s not acting in good faith. That’s where the uproar is.
Seriously?? They got it "taken care of"?? No, they called the National Guard and had them shipped off to a military base. Same folks who cried about using the National Guard to protect our southern borders. How hypocritical!!
Rate This wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:30 am
....What I’m saying is my initial thought was: “Why the hell is FLORIDA transporting people from TEXAS to MASSACHUSETTS? How are migrants I’m TEXAS any of FLORIDA’s business?
How did they end up in Florida to begin with?? Who packed them up and shipped them across the country? Why did they pick Florida?



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by bmw » Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:47 pm

RT - you're going to need to provide me with a link as I can locate no Florida State law 117-2. I can find Federal public law 117-2 (which is the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021) but no equivalent Florida State law, let alone with the language you have quoted. Not saying it doesn't exist in Florida's state laws, but I am unable to locate it. I did find a reference here - https://digitaleditions.sheridan.com/pu ... cleBrowser (see Section 185) but at the end it says that the section becomes effective upon becoming a law. And that was only a few months ago. Has it indeed been adopted as law?

And re, me being interested in semantics - yep. As I said, words matter. And if people are going to accuse public officials of having committed federal or state crimes, then semantics become very important to the debate. This thread didn't start out as a debate over whether what he did was right or wrong. Rather, right out of the gate, he was called Hitler (not by you, but that's where this conversation began).



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:31 pm

km1125 wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:51 am
Rate This wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:41 am
The key word is forced… no plan no nothing… there was no coordination and that was on purpose. The folks on Martha’s Vineyard sprang into action and got it taken care of. But if you are just gonna send them as a surprise… that’s not acting in good faith. That’s where the uproar is.
Seriously?? They got it "taken care of"?? No, they called the National Guard and had them shipped off to a military base. Same folks who cried about using the National Guard to protect our southern borders. How hypocritical!!
Rate This wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:30 am
....What I’m saying is my initial thought was: “Why the hell is FLORIDA transporting people from TEXAS to MASSACHUSETTS? How are migrants I’m TEXAS any of FLORIDA’s business?
How did they end up in Florida to begin with?? Who packed them up and shipped them across the country? Why did they pick Florida?
They were picked up by a Florida funded plane in Texas, stopped off in Florida for an hour layover and then went to Martha’s Vineyard. They were never in Florida nor were they shipped across the country by anybody. They stopped in Florida so it “counted” under that statute limiting them to funding this activity WITHIN Florida.



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Re: DeSantis sends planes of illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard

Post by Rate This » Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:35 pm

bmw wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:47 pm
RT - you're going to need to provide me with a link as I can locate no Florida State law 117-2. I can find Federal public law 117-2 (which is the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021) but no equivalent Florida State law, let alone with the language you have quoted. Not saying it doesn't exist in Florida's state laws, but I am unable to locate it. I did find a reference here - https://digitaleditions.sheridan.com/pu ... cleBrowser (see Section 185) but at the end it says that the section becomes effective upon becoming a law. And that was only a few months ago. Has it indeed been adopted as law?

And re, me being interested in semantics - yep. As I said, words matter. And if people are going to accuse public officials of having committed federal or state crimes, then semantics become very important to the debate. This thread didn't start out as a debate over whether what he did was right or wrong. Rather, right out of the gate, he was called Hitler (not by you, but that's where this conversation began).
Found it…
It’s in HB 5001 which is their appropriations act for 2022/23… so the Florida Budget. I realized my error in the number when I was at work. Finally have a moment to correct that. 117-2 is whats being cited by that budget language.

At any rate the flights originated in San Antonio, Texas so it’s pretty clearly not what the budget language says. The people were never in Florida except by the DeSantis ordered flight plan. And yes I believe he had an active role in planning this and trying to put a fig leaf on this violation by having them in the state for an hour nevermind that HE brought them there.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/09/16/us/m ... index.html



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