Good guy (or rather woman) with gun stops bad guy with AR-15

[Bryce]

Being armed all day, everyday, is a big responsibility. And in some ways a major inconvenience. Not all citizens are capable of, or willing to do so. But those that are can save your life.

[Matt]

I wonder if someone had said that the shooter was black, that could have changed the outcome. Maybe then those Uvalde cops would have rushed the building. Or maybe if those kids were mainly majority white....

You really want to be TCT Jr?

[FakeAndyStuart]

I didn't even hear about this until today. Apparently happened 3 days ago. Must have not gotten much media coverage.

I wonder what Fake Andy Stuart's thoughts are on this one? Or Honeyman's? Or "Fuck your guns" Lester's?

A woman in West Virginia fatally shot a man who began firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd of people that had gathered for a party, authorities said.

Dennis Butler, 37, was killed Wednesday night after he pulled out the rifle and began shooting at dozens of people attending the birthday-graduation party outside an apartment complex in the city of Charleston, police said in a statement.

The woman, who was attending the party, drew a pistol and fired, killing Butler, the statement said. No one at the party was injured.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/pol ... d-85002437

So there you go. How do you stop someone with an AR-15 from killing dozens of people? There's your answer.

Since you asked...

Clearly this is a case of an armed "good guy" stopping a potential disaster, and hats off to the women who had the strength and fortitude to steady her weapon and fire. But it is also ONE case. The security guard in Buffalo really didn't slow the grocery store shooter down (according to the reports I read, with his heavy armor on.) There were as many "good guys with guns" in the halls of Robb Elementary School as kids who were murdered (not comparing directly to anything else but clearly their presence had no protective value.)

My concern is how this can escalate quickly - "Well, he looked like he had a gun so I shot him." "The cops weren't doing anything about this so I took care of it myself." Is it okay for armed folks to settle their arguments at 10 paces?

And the ultimate question for me is.. this handles the symptoms but not the disease. I feel like trying to solve the problem before the armed assailant shows up is a better use of our resources.

It's like the same feeling I have about St Jude's Hospital. I'm so glad it's there to deal with childhood cancers, but wouldn't it be so great if kids didn't get cancer, or that it could be treated before hospitalization was required? I'd much rather spend my money on research to find the cause. Same with this. What makes an 18 year old (or for that matter, any age) do something like this? Is it video games, was it COVID lockdowns (can't blame those on Sandy Hook)? Is it violent TV, or the breakup of the traditional family (but so far Eric and Don Jr. haven't gone shooting up anything but endangered animals..) Will we study the life and history of the Uvalde perp to discover the cause of this, or just jerk each other off until the next shooting?

And that means we all have to look at this with eyes wide open. If research shows (which some studies do and others don't) CONCLUSIVELY that reducing the availability of guns saves lives, we have to be able to talk about it. And if the research DOESN'T show that, we can't harp on "gun control" as a solution. If we can't come to the table with all options open, we might as well start War Between the States 2.0.

[lidoshuffle]

I didn't even hear about this until today. Apparently happened 3 days ago. Must have not gotten much media coverage.

I wonder what Fake Andy Stuart's thoughts are on this one? Or Honeyman's? Or "Fuck your guns" Lester's?

A woman in West Virginia fatally shot a man who began firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd of people that had gathered for a party, authorities said.

Dennis Butler, 37, was killed Wednesday night after he pulled out the rifle and began shooting at dozens of people attending the birthday-graduation party outside an apartment complex in the city of Charleston, police said in a statement.

The woman, who was attending the party, drew a pistol and fired, killing Butler, the statement said. No one at the party was injured.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/pol ... d-85002437

So there you go. How do you stop someone with an AR-15 from killing dozens of people? There's your answer.

WE know, if you were there at Uvalde, you would have instantly drawn your sidearm and whispered "Yippe ky aye motherf*cker" and then start shooting the Uvalde punk shooter. Teachers are hired to teach, not to be "Rambo" and instantly start to whip out their firearms and shoot back...great idea training a 45 yr old woman to become a professional soldier along with being a elementary school teacher, armed trained personnel now should be standard equipment in all public schools funded by the local/state gov't...

[Deleted User 15783]

Y'all have been busy on here since Memorial weekend started. Sorry I missed it. Pentwater was nice.

One takeaway I have from this thread (so far) is why in the heck don't the NRA literally take out ads when something like this happens. I agree with those who say this happens more than we hear. Why don't the pro-gun people shout it from the rooftops?

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

I wonder if someone had said that the shooter was black, that could have changed the outcome. Maybe then those Uvalde cops would have rushed the building. Or maybe if those kids were mainly majority white....

You really want to be TCT Jr?

Just thinking out loud, Matt. Those Uvalde cops were cowardly motherfuckers. Modern day problems require modern day solutions.

[Bryce]

Just thinking out loud, Matt. Those Uvalde cops were cowardly motherfuckers. Modern day problems require modern day solutions.

Umm, just to correct a glaring error. The officers on the scene wanted to go in. They did not on orders from their chief. Some discussed defying a direct order. Hate on the Chief, don't hate on the others.

[Matt]

Y'all have been busy on here since Memorial weekend started. Sorry I missed it. Pentwater was nice.

Good to hear the jalopy made the trip from downriver to pentwater.

[MWmetalhead]

It's clear the AR-15 is the weapon of choice among mass murderers or would-be mass murderers.

High capacity semi-auto firearms capable of firing deadly rounds should not be available for members of the general public to purchase. Current background check procedures need to be enhanced and expanded to include spouses, children, and co-habitants.

Much greater access to mental health services at secondary and collegiate schools needs to occur.

Violent video games should be made illegal.

Parents and guardians should be held criminally accountable for actions perpetrated by their children with unlocked firearms.

Metal detectors or officers with metal detecting wands should be stationed at school entrances.

[bmw]

Violent video games should be made illegal.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

Not to mention I have yet to find a study linking video games to violent kids. This debate is 30 years old. And not a shred of evidence in that time.

Metal detectors or officers with metal detecting wands should be stationed at school entrances.

As someone who worked at a public school, I am 100% against this.

[bmw]

But it is also ONE case.

Plenty more out there that get zippo for media attention. Not sure how many specifically stopping those with AR-15's, but this kind of thing is a daily occurrence.

My concern is how this can escalate quickly - "Well, he looked like he had a gun so I shot him." "The cops weren't doing anything about this so I took care of it myself." Is it okay for armed folks to settle their arguments at 10 paces?

Do you have any evidence to suggest that this is a common occurrence? Sounds more like an unfounded concern to me.

And the ultimate question for me is.. this handles the symptoms but not the disease. I feel like trying to solve the problem before the armed assailant shows up is a better use of our resources.

That's great. But when the armed assailant DOES show up, I don't want to be completely helpless. That, and allowing people to carry concealed isn't exactly a drain of resources.

What makes an 18 year old (or for that matter, any age) do something like this? Is it video games...

As I noted in my response to MW immediately above, it isn't video games. This has been heavily studied for decades and I have yet to find a study that conclusively links one to the other. Which is why I'm amused that MW just out of nowhere, without support for his position, suggested we simply "ban" all "violent" video games.

...was it COVID lockdowns (can't blame those on Sandy Hook)?

Certainly didn't help matters. Evidence to come in future years, I presume.

Is it violent TV,

Getting warmer. My hypothesis is that there are some people who struggle separating fiction from reality when they consume both their fiction and their reality through the same device (the smart phone). Become desensitized to one (violent fiction), and for children born into having a smart phone and living their life through it, and that desensitization may carry over to the other. Now you may ask again "but what about violent video games?" The most graphic of violent games are console games, not handheld. That's not to say that video games don't contribute to de-sensitization to violence, but I blame that more on the handheld device than the game itself.

or the breakup of the traditional family

That's a cultural problem with no legislative solution. We do know that of most children who engage in violence, they're far more likely to not have a father figure in the home. This ultimately starts with, don't have sex (and that applies to both the man and the woman) if you aren't committed to raising a child for 17 years.

If research shows (which some studies do and others don't) CONCLUSIVELY that reducing the availability of guns saves lives, we have to be able to talk about it. And if the research DOESN'T show that, we can't harp on "gun control" as a solution.

At least when it comes to school shootings, as I noted in another post, there's no correlation between the amount of gun control a state has in place and the number of school shootings over the past 22 years in that state. So either there is no correlation, or the gun control itself isn't actually reducing the availaility of the weapons.

[Honeyman]

We never hear an answer to the question of why an 18 year old needs and should be allowed to buy an AR-15. Just bullshit rhetoric like, "Do we really need anything but food and water?" or that if 18 year olds can vote they should have other rights, or blah, blah, blah. Probably because there is no good answer to that question. Common sense can tell you that.

[Bryce]

We never hear an answer to the question of why an 18 year old needs and should be allowed to buy an AR-15. Just bullshit rhetoric like, "Do we really need anything but food and water?" or that if 18 year olds can vote they should have other rights, or blah, blah, blah. Probably because there is no good answer to that question. Common sense can tell you that.

So it's OK to send an 18 year old off to war in a foreign land, but not let them purchase a weapon much less lethal than the one they would use at war while they are at home?

Maybe the need one because there are 16 year old gangbangers driving around their neighborhood with illegal AR 15 in their car?

I also think it's a travesty that an 18 year old can get drafted, but they can't buy a beer.

Our youngsters are maturing at a slower rate than the generations before them. I think it's time to change adult hood to 21 across the board including the draft.

[Honeyman]

We never hear an answer to the question of why an 18 year old needs and should be allowed to buy an AR-15. Just bullshit rhetoric like, "Do we really need anything but food and water?" or that if 18 year olds can vote they should have other rights, or blah, blah, blah. Probably because there is no good answer to that question. Common sense can tell you that.

So it's OK to send an 18 year old off to war in a foreign land, but not let them purchase a weapon much less lethal than the one they would use at war while they are at home?

Maybe the need one because there are 16 year old gangbangers driving around their neighborhood with illegal AR 15 in their car?

I also think it's a travesty that an 18 year old can get drafted, but they can't buy a beer.

Our youngsters are maturing at a slower rate than the generations before them. I think it's time to change adult hood to 21 across the board including the draft.

. I just KNEW you'd come thru and prove my point for me!!!

[bmw]

We never hear an answer to the question of why an 18 year old needs and should be allowed to buy an AR-15. Just bullshit rhetoric like, "Do we really need anything but food and water?" or that if 18 year olds can vote they should have other rights, or blah, blah, blah. Probably because there is no good answer to that question. Common sense can tell you that.

The "age" part of your question is a red herring as 18-year-olds have the same Constitutional rights as 40-year olds. So to the extent you're asking "why" one should be allowed to buy an AR-15, the answer is because buying guns is a Constitutional right. You are owed no further justification.

The real question here is where we draw the line on which weapons pose a threat to public safety such that the right of the public to be safe outweighs your 2nd Amendment right to bear a particular arm and whether the AR-15 specifically crosses that line. That's really the only question relevant to this debate.