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Maybe the time has come

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zzand
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Maybe the time has come

Post by zzand » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:08 am

I have been doing some reading and looking at legal angles and think it may be time for vaccine mandates to be put in place. I am not talking about the Federal Government lining up everyone but businesses imposing mandates. The bribes of million dollar lotteries and free college haven't worked and the statistics are showing with Delta, it is the unvaccinated that are driving the new cases. While cases are still far below peak the trends are showing we may be headed back to high numbers this fall and winter and with roughly 100 million still unvaccinated those numbers could get dizzy high. Examples, want to fly, show proof of vaccination. Want to go to concerts, show proof of vaccination. The courts are already siding with employers who have mandates in place and more businesses will start imposing them to protect said business, employees and customers. Yeah, yeah, I know, herd immunity, well it is not here yet and no one knows when it will come and I have real world examples of prior infection not stopping a second go around as both of my daughters had the original infection, then suffered through the UK variant. In my company there are only 2 employees who are not vaccinated and they are both under 40 and interestingly enough Democrats. I have been listening to talk radio lately, something I have avoided for some time and hosts are urging listeners to get the jabs, even Fox news, with a few exceptions, is now asking viewers to get them. The tide is turning on fighting the jabs and it is time businesses take the lead. Our local Walmart, Kroger and other stores have restored mask mandates, my company has restored them as well. My goal with this post is to start an intelligent discussion on this and hopefully we can have one. There was a time that was a given, not so much anymore. Signed, a Registered Real Republican who is fully vaccinated.



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Bryce
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by Bryce » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:18 am

zzand wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:08 am
My goal with this post is to start an intelligent discussion on this and hopefully we can have one.
Yeah, well, good luck with that...

If a business forces people to accept an experimental vaccine, one that is approved for emergency use only by the FDA, will they be liable for damages if someone has an adverse reaction or side effect?


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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lidoshuffle
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by lidoshuffle » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:33 am

"Our local Walmart, Kroger and other stores have restored mask mandates, my company has restored them as well."

What? Where do you reside? No Kroger/Walmart and other stores around the Metro Detroit area I know of have restored mask mandates. Why would they since the CDC ok'd no masks for fully vaxxed people, why would a store just suddenly restore a mask policy to drive away customers? I have no issues with vaccine mandates, I myself am vaxxed, but I understand others right not to get the vaccine. So please enlighten us and tell us where you reside so I can avoid these stores you say have mask mandates back in place...??



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craig11152
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by craig11152 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:35 am

I am a middle of the road moderate who leans left on some things and right on others.
For the life of me I don't understand the political line on these vaccinations. Heck even Trump got one.


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zzand
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by zzand » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:01 am

Lido, calm your tits, I live in a different state. One that had much better, common sense approaches to dealing with this since the start. As for why they put the mask mandates back in place? Our local health department issued a statement to all businesses talking about the Delta variant, local vaccine rates and suggested masks be worn again, but left it up to business owners. Some, not all, but a majority took it to heart and for obvious safety reasons ask that masks be worn. No one is turned away form any business mask or not, but from what I have seen most people are wearing them with no complaints. A common sense approach. Put the facts out there and let people decide.



TC Shuts Up
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by TC Shuts Up » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:26 am

Why don't they admit that Hydoxicholorquine, Ivermectin, and other proven anti viral drugs work and save lives if given early?

Why aren't they admitting that the true number of so called "breakthrough" cases is much larger than they will admit, that the the vaccine really isn't that effective, and as more variants emerge, that effectiveness will decease even more?

Why aren't many respected virologists and statisticians with dissenting views being allowed to be heard on alphabet media that don't spell anything, without the labels they assign to them?

Why aren't the speeches at "new world order" conferences (Including Bill Gates) who call for a 90% reduction in world population, and the fact that China is working on viruses that target and kill off entire races of humans, being heard? Isn't that a genocide far worse than any in human history?

BTW, Bill Gates never even finished college. He is not a "scientist" in a classic sense. His expertise is in computer software, self taught, not anything else.

BTW, Senator Rand Paul IS A DOCTOR, like Fauci. Somehow, they always leave that out vs. "Doctor" Fauci. Fauci is beginning to seem more like DOCTOR Frankenstein.
Last edited by TC Shuts Up on Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.


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lidoshuffle
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by lidoshuffle » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:30 am

zzand wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:01 am
Lido, calm your tits, I live in a different state. One that had much better, common sense approaches to dealing with this since the start. As for why they put the mask mandates back in place? Our local health department issued a statement to all businesses talking about the Delta variant, local vaccine rates and suggested masks be worn again, but left it up to business owners. Some, not all, but a majority took it to heart and for obvious safety reasons ask that masks be worn. No one is turned away form any business mask or not, but from what I have seen most people are wearing them with no complaints. A common sense approach. Put the facts out there and let people decide.
Thanks for clarifying your post....



bmw
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by bmw » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:30 am

zzand wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:08 am
I have been doing some reading and looking at legal angles and think it may be time for vaccine mandates to be put in place...
zzand wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:01 am
...Put the facts out there and let people decide.
There's 2 contradictory statements if ever I've seen them.



bmw
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by bmw » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:36 am

I'm not going to spend any time here re-hashing where I stand on this. I've posted in great detail in several other threads my explanations for my opinion. I will simply say that you answered your own question in your original post. "The bribes of million dollar lotteries and free college haven't worked and the statistics are showing with Delta, it is the unvaccinated that are driving the new cases." There is a certain segment of the population that DOES NOT WANT TO GET VACCINATED. We (used to anyways) live in a free country. If it is the unvaccinated who are driving the current wave as you contend, then that's their problem and nobody else's. To the extent these people are unable to work for a few weeks while being sick, maybe employers should just have a policy that such illness is unpaid sick time.



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MWmetalhead
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:41 am

If it is the unvaccinated who are driving the current wave as you contend, then that's their problem and nobody else's. To the extent these people are unable to work for a few weeks while being sick, maybe employers should just have a policy that such illness is unpaid sick time.
It isn't just "their" problem. As you correctly point out, it also affects their employers. On top of that, it affects the health care economy of this country of ours.

I agree with the unpaid sick time suggestion. I think that's a great idea.

Bryce raises a legitimate question regarding the FDA authorization. Why hasn't formal authorization been granted? Are the standards for formal vaccination authorization unreasonably rigid?
In my company there are only 2 employees who are not vaccinated and they are both under 40 and interestingly enough Democrats.
Historically, most of the prominent anti-vaxxers have been those who reside on the political left.

The fact a relatively wide cross-section of Evangelicals and Trump populists are seemingly anti-vaccine is a rather recent phenomenon. The fact their hero (Trump) largely downplayed risks associated with COVID, and the fact those in his corner falsely accused scientists and others of "weaponizing" (i.e. exaggerating) threats associated with the pandemic, has a lot to do with it. If he had taken a much different tone, many more on the right would've been vaccinated by now.

In Michigan, Detroit by far has the lowest vaccination rate of any significant city. I think in some urban communities, there are some outrageously ridiculous conspiracy theories being floated. Some are just flat out irresponsible people (we can thank the welfare state and hip-hop culture for that; yeah, I'm being politically incorrect.). In Detroit, only 39.5% of residents have received at least one dose. Compare that to 70% in Oakland County.



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craig11152
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by craig11152 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:55 am

bmw wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:36 am
If it is the unvaccinated who are driving the current wave as you contend, then that's their problem and nobody else's. To the extent these people are unable to work for a few weeks while being sick, maybe employers should just have a policy that such illness is unpaid sick time.
But its not just their problem and nobody else's.
If medical facilities become overwhelmed then its a problem for health care workers forced to work longer hours.

If these people can't work for a few weeks that can be a problem for many employers who can't easily fill a void. 2 people out sick in a company of 100 isn't the same as 2 people out in a company of 10 or 5.

The cost to care for these people becomes a burden of health care insurers who then have raise rates across the board to cover the expense.

If someone chooses not to get vaccinated and then passes the disease to somebody who for whatever reason CAN"T get vaccinated that's not just their problem

If somebody chooses not to get vaccinated, gets sick and dies leaving behind grieving loved ones or kids without a parent that's not just their problem


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craig11152
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by craig11152 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:57 am

I was typing the above when our fearless leader made some of the same points ahead of me.


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bmw
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by bmw » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:00 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:41 am
...it also affects their employers...
The far larger problem employers have right now is simply finding people willing to work. The recent widespread staff shortages that you see in the services and restaurants sectors have little to do with sick people being unable to work and much more to do with people opting to collect unemployment rather than working. I live in the Tawas area. We're largely a tourist area. People are on PERMANENT VACATION UP HERE! You wouldn't believe the vehicle traffic - no matter the day of the week or the time of day. It is literally, and I'm not exaggerating, bumper-to-bumper on US-23 from Tawas to Oscoda during all daylight hours. And I'm not the only person to notice this - my business clients agree - we've never seen so much traffic. And this has been going on now for at least a few months, without letup. It used to only be like this on summer weekends (namely, Friday through Sunday). And probably 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 vehicles you see on the road is towing a large camping trailer. It is common belief among the locals up here that these people are living on government paychecks, not working, and taking extended vacations up here (or in some cases, people working remotely and just staying up here instead).
MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:41 am
The fact a relatively wide cross-section of Evangelicals and Trump populists are seemingly anti-vaccine is a rather recent phenomenon. The fact their hero (Trump) largely downplayed risks associated with COVID, and the fact those in his corner falsely accused scientists and others of "weaponizing" (i.e. exaggerating) threats associated with the pandemic, has a lot to do with it. If he had taken a much different tone, many more on the right would've been vaccinated by now.
This is an overly-broad generalization. Yes, there are those who buy into every conspiracy theory floated out there and make their decisions based on these. But there are also those who do their own independent research and simply reach different conclusions after looking at troves of data than you and others do. I generally agree with Rand Paul's recommendations here. Namely, that most people over 65 benefit from vaccination, that people from 40 to 65 with underlying conditions benefit, and that most others may not need it, especially including those who have been previously infected. I also don't buy into the idea that Trump is to blame - even had Trump's tone been different while he was President, not only would that not have changed the underlying data used to make rational decisions about vaccination, but it also wouldn't have done much to prevent conspiracy theories today. But hey, if you don't believe that 2 different rational people can look at the same data and reach different conclusions regarding who should and who not necessarily need get vaccinated, then you're not going to buy into anything I'm saying anyways.



bmw
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by bmw » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:06 pm

craig11152 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:55 am
bmw wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:36 am
If it is the unvaccinated who are driving the current wave as you contend, then that's their problem and nobody else's. To the extent these people are unable to work for a few weeks while being sick, maybe employers should just have a policy that such illness is unpaid sick time.
But its not just their problem and nobody else's.
If medical facilities become overwhelmed then its a problem for health care workers forced to work longer hours.

If these people can't work for a few weeks that can be a problem for many employers who can't easily fill a void. 2 people out sick in a company of 100 isn't the same as 2 people out in a company of 10 or 5.

The cost to care for these people becomes a burden of health care insurers who then have raise rates across the board to cover the expense.

If someone chooses not to get vaccinated and then passes the disease to somebody who for whatever reason CAN"T get vaccinated that's not just their problem

If somebody chooses not to get vaccinated, gets sick and dies leaving behind grieving loved ones or kids without a parent that's not just their problem
Bottom line is this entire debate is over roughly 20 to 25% of the population. Over half has already had Covid, and more than half of the other half is already vaccinated (roughly 30% overlap into both categories). I find it odd that we're having so much debate and putting so much effort into propaganda at what I believe is the tail end of the pandemic. What is going on now pales in comparison to the 13 months between March 2020 and April 2021, yet, people seem more frantic than ever over this right now.



TC Shuts Up
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Re: Maybe the time has come

Post by TC Shuts Up » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:09 pm

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. Anti THIS vaccine is not the same as Anti ANY vaccine. Calling people "anti-vaxxers" that gladly submit to long proven, safe, and effective Polio, DPT, and Influenza vaccines, for examples, is just calling people that you want to discredit names.

Most of these people would willingly take proven, safe, and effective vaccines for the virus that we "imported" last year amidst scores of lies from the source and from politicians and "experts".

Remember that in a court of law or in the court of public opinion, once you're told just one proven lie, all of your testimony and opinions are discredited.
Last edited by TC Shuts Up on Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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