A Recipe For Foreign Domination Of The US

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Those teacher parking lots are looking pretty empty about an hour after last bell, and you do know most districts allow a free hour for teachers to do things like grade work. Teachers who choose to participate in academic/community service get paid for it in most districts. And if you look at the schedule, when professional development is done by way of an academic program, there are nice-sized rewards.

They take their work home with them and spend hours grading papers and tests. I remember my own teachers talking about this. They effectively do a years worth of work in 180 days and get summers off for it. A guy making $80,000 and crying poor (saw a teacher in Ann Arbor doing this on a strike) I have no sympathy for. He clearly isn’t living within his means.

[km1125]

It takes more than an hour to grade work. A lot of that work comes home with the teacher.

I hear that all the time too, from teachers in the family, and I think it's mostly BS. It's no different than the moms of little kids whining about being tired all the time because they have to clean up after their 3, 4 and 5 years old kids. The house is a mess because they can't/won't teach them to clean up their toys by themselves, nor hold them accountable to do it.

[jadednihilist]

It takes more than an hour to grade work. A lot of that work comes home with the teacher.

I hear that all the time too, from teachers in the family, and I think it's mostly BS. It's no different than the moms of little kids whining about being tired all the time because they have to clean up after their 3, 4 and 5 years old kids. The house is a mess because they can't/won't teach them to clean up their toys by themselves, nor hold them accountable to do it.

I don't agree with this analogy at all. Sure, a lot of responsibilities fall on (both) parents, but parenting is different than paid labor. Classes don't teach themselves; and it is unreasonable to expect children at a certain developmental level to teach themselves. Effective teaching happens with much of the prep work done outside of the classroom, including grading. Grading, when done well, is another teaching opportunity. It assesses both student and teacher performance.

I recognize there are several jobs where work doesn't end when you clock out. Teaching is one of them. We can't complain about the state of education and think that $36k is an attractive starting salary (especially in STEM) when you can get paid at least double with a degree in engineering.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

Shocking that GG has such a disdain for teachers. Probably because he got left back 3 times in second grade.

I am not sure which teachers I pity more, his or Bidet's teachers.

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It takes more than an hour to grade work. A lot of that work comes home with the teacher.

I hear that all the time too, from teachers in the family, and I think it's mostly BS. It's no different than the moms of little kids whining about being tired all the time because they have to clean up after their 3, 4 and 5 years old kids. The house is a mess because they can't/won't teach them to clean up their toys by themselves, nor hold them accountable to do it.

I don't agree with this analogy at all. Sure, a lot of responsibilities fall on (both) parents, but parenting is different than paid labor. Classes don't teach themselves; and it is unreasonable to expect children at a certain developmental level to teach themselves. Effective teaching happens with much of the prep work done outside of the classroom, including grading. Grading, when done well, is another teaching opportunity. It assesses both student and teacher performance.

I recognize there are several jobs where work doesn't end when you clock out. Teaching is one of them. We can't complain about the state of education and think that $36k is an attractive starting salary (especially in STEM) when you can get paid at least double with a degree in engineering.

Hell… I started at $50K driving a bus…

[jadednihilist]

That's really good money for operating a bus.

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That's really good money for operating a bus.

As difficult as the job can be my $17.50 an hour should be closer to $22 or so. Between $60 and $70K is about right for the safety sensitive nature and the grief in dealing with stupid people and idiots on the roads.

Interestingly it pales in comparison to the unionized city bus drivers in Ann Arbor and at the U of M… $24-$28 an hour and you have folks putting in so much overtime some of them are at if not over $100K.. those are the two highest paying entities I know of in the immediate area. Had I realized that I never would have gotten $80K in debt getting a relatively useless bachelors degree. That debt actually causes that 50K to not go as far as it should. It’s one of the great issues of the times.

[bmw]

We can't complain about the state of education and think that $36k is an attractive starting salary (especially in STEM) when you can get paid at least double with a degree in engineering.

As an FYI, the AVERAGE teaching salary in Michigan in 2017 was over $62,000. https://www.michigancapitolconfidential ... 20a%20year

I used to work as a tech person at my local school district, and I once asked (in private) our Superintendent at the time why starting teacher pay is so low - and his response was that the school district has to allocate a larger and larger percentage of its budget every year to pay for teacher pension plans. As best I recall his explanation, he said that the District pays a percentage of each teacher's payroll into their pension, and that the District simply couldn't afford to pay starting teachers a high salary due to the corresponding high pension payments, that it would rather reserve those higher payments for teachers with seniority. He said otherwise, they couldn't pay teachers with seniority as much if they paid higher starting wages, and the ultimate fear that the "good" teachers would leave the district and go elsewhere once they had in a certain number of years if there was nowhere for their wages to climb. I remember being a bit surprised at his openness in giving me that explanation.

[jadednihilist]

That's really good money for operating a bus.

As difficult as the job can be my $17.50 an hour should be closer to $22 or so. Between $60 and $70K is about right for the safety sensitive nature and the grief in dealing with stupid people and idiots on the roads.

Interestingly it pales in comparison to the unionized city bus drivers in Ann Arbor and at the U of M… $24-$28 an hour and you have folks putting in so much overtime some of them are at if not over $100K.. those are the two highest paying entities I know of in the immediate area. Had I realized that I never would have gotten $80K in debt getting a relatively useless bachelors degree. That debt actually causes that 50K to not go as far as it should. It’s one of the great issues of the times.

No doubt. I don't envy your job at all.

I used to rely on the public transit in Ann Arbor as it's often more convenient than driving if you live in town. The AAATA and UM/Magic Bus systems are pretty great.

[jadednihilist]

We can't complain about the state of education and think that $36k is an attractive starting salary (especially in STEM) when you can get paid at least double with a degree in engineering.

As an FYI, the AVERAGE teaching salary in Michigan in 2017 was over $62,000. https://www.michigancapitolconfidential ... 20a%20year

I used to work as a tech person at my local school district, and I once asked (in private) our Superintendent at the time why starting teacher pay is so low - and his response was that the school district has to allocate a larger and larger percentage of its budget every year to pay for teacher pension plans. As best I recall his explanation, he said that the District pays a percentage of each teacher's payroll into their pension, and that the District simply couldn't afford to pay starting teachers a high salary due to the corresponding high pension payments, that it would rather reserve those higher payments for teachers with seniority. He said otherwise, they couldn't pay teachers with seniority as much if they paid higher starting wages, and the ultimate fear that the "good" teachers would leave the district and go elsewhere once they had in a certain number of years if there was nowhere for their wages to climb. I remember being a bit surprised at his openness in giving me that explanation.

Fair. Teaching tends to be a job with great growth and longevity, so the average skews high and the teachers making those averages tend to be older. The salaries I have issues with are for new/starting teachers, which seem quite low to attract new talent. I do agree that teachers were overpromised in their retirement plans, especially in comparison to other occupations and that has led to an undue burden on the school system w/o benefiting the students. This is one of many of the bones I have to pick with US education in practice.

[bmw]

Having worked at a public school and managing a $140,000 department budget myself, I can tell you that just like city, state, and federal governments, there's a lot of waste in the overall budget. Take a district like the one where I worked - roughly 75 teachers. The overall budget could EASILY have a few hundred thousand dollars shaved off it and re-allocated to salary, thereby bumping salaries up $2,000 per teacher. A lot of the problem honestly was the School Board. You had 7 members, each with their own agendas and spending priorities, and what you ultimately ended up with was a budget bloated in a lot of areas.

It was also my opinion that the administrators (namely, Superintendent, principals, and vice-principals) made too much money - nearly every admin position carried with it a 6-figure income.

[jadednihilist]

Having worked at a public school and managing a $140,000 department budget myself, I can tell you that just like city, state, and federal governments, there's a lot of waste in the overall budget. Take a district like the one where I worked - roughly 75 teachers. The overall budget could EASILY have a few hundred thousand dollars shaved off it and re-allocated to salary, thereby bumping salaries up $2,000 per teacher. A lot of the problem honestly was the School Board. You had 7 members, each with their own agendas and spending priorities, and what you ultimately ended up with was a budget bloated in a lot of areas.

It was also my opinion that the administrators (namely, Superintendent, principals, and vice-principals) made too much money - nearly every admin position carried with it a 6-figure income.

1) Kudos for getting through my obtuse word salad in my previous post. I had like 5 minutes to spare before a meeting and what I had in my head was incredibly poorly articulated upon a second read.

2) I largely agree with you in all of these outlined points. We'd have to go into the details on what is considered waste, but I do agree that the budgets are bloated, school boards are dysfunctional (just like any legislative body), and administrators are overcompensated. I would also argue that public school teachers are too heavily micromanaged to effectively teach students critical materials. The curricula need a heavy revamp that emphasizes life skills, critical thinking, and meta-learning (learning how to learn), rather than arbitrary rote memorization. These skills would better prepare students for both college and training in the trades - and help students be more adaptable to an ever-increasing rate of change in this world.

[G G]

My problem with K-12 is the requirement of teacher certifications for anyone who is going to be in front of a classroom as a full-time teacher. Let me tell you why.

While there are differences between teaching at the K-12 and university level, a person who holds a doctoral degree in, say Business, and who has a professional history that includes teaching at a college, should be considered qualified to teach in K-12. However, this highly qualified individual would not be able to obtain a position in most districts. There is a solution, which requires going through an alternative teaching certification program, but from talking to a few close friends who went through one (Teachers for Tomorrow), all they require is people responding to discussion board with literally anything and completing exams where they can re-take the exams. The school also gives the answers to exam questions and they can be googled as well. So basically, these programs teach nothing and are moneygrabs.

[Lester The Nightfly]

Having worked at a public school and managing a $140,000 department budget myself, I can tell you that just like city, state, and federal governments, there's a lot of waste in the overall budget. Take a district like the one where I worked - roughly 75 teachers. The overall budget could EASILY have a few hundred thousand dollars shaved off it and re-allocated to salary, thereby bumping salaries up $2,000 per teacher. A lot of the problem honestly was the School Board. You had 7 members, each with their own agendas and spending priorities, and what you ultimately ended up with was a budget bloated in a lot of areas.

It was also my opinion that the administrators (namely, Superintendent, principals, and vice-principals) made too much money - nearly every admin position carried with it a 6-figure income.

A whole $140,000? All by yourself? Wow, no wonder you're so fucking clueless about so many things in terms of business and economics with that depth of fiscal stewardship. $140,000. Slap my fanny and call me Biscuit...

[G G]

Having worked at a public school and managing a $140,000 department budget myself, I can tell you that just like city, state, and federal governments, there's a lot of waste in the overall budget. Take a district like the one where I worked - roughly 75 teachers. The overall budget could EASILY have a few hundred thousand dollars shaved off it and re-allocated to salary, thereby bumping salaries up $2,000 per teacher. A lot of the problem honestly was the School Board. You had 7 members, each with their own agendas and spending priorities, and what you ultimately ended up with was a budget bloated in a lot of areas.

It was also my opinion that the administrators (namely, Superintendent, principals, and vice-principals) made too much money - nearly every admin position carried with it a 6-figure income.

A whole $140,000? All by yourself? Wow, no wonder you're so fucking clueless about so many things in terms of business and economics with that depth of fiscal stewardship. $140,000. Slap my fanny and call me Biscuit...

You need to start being more respectful if you want people to take you seriously here, les.