Let's talk about Sweden

[bmw]

I just finished crunching some mumbers. Source - Situation Report #75 (yesterday's report) from the WHO. https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease ... on-reports

Population numbers - Eurostat (per Google)

Infection rates per-capita (highest to lowest) in the 15 largest European nations:

1 in 396 - Spain
1 in 435 - Switzerland
1 in 504 - Italy
1 in 680 - Belgium
1 in 765 - Austria
1 in 1031 - Norway
1 in 1041 - Portugal
1 in 1054 - France
1 in 1092 - Netherlands
1 in 1130 - Ireland
1 in 1239 - Israel
1 in 1301 - Germany
1 in 1665 - Sweden
1 in 1740 - UK
1 in 3862 - Turkey

Why is Sweden important? Because they're the one European nation not in lock-down. In fact, they have almost no restrictions whatsoever. Most businesses are open. Every other nation is basically in lock-down.

SO....I'd love to hear an explanation from everyone out there who insists that government-mandated shutdowns are the only way to slow the spread as to why Sweden is not only no worse than anywhere else in Europe, but actually ranks as the third-lowest infected country per-capita.

So put aside your personal biases for a minute. Put aside your pre-conceived notion that government is the ONLY solution. And explain this one to me.

[Turkeytop]

Sweden is doing it. Can you name any country or state, besides Sweden, that has shut down voluntarily without a government order?

People here are whining because they don't have access to the fashion department at Target.

[zzand]

My friend, you have decided that lock down, stay at home, shelter in place is bad and no one is going to change your mind. I applaud you taking a stand and not backing down. I for one, after having a child in quarantine for 14 days because 2 co-workers tested positive, see it differently. My kiddo came through it with flying colors and is now back at work, from home.

[Rate This]

Sweden is doing it. Can you name any country or state, besides Sweden, that has shut down voluntarily without a government order?

People here are whining because they don't have access to the fashion department at Target.

The other countries also probably have entry and exit restrictions that preclude it spreading to Sweden in large numbers.

[Lester The Nightfly]

My friend, you have decided that lock down, stay at home, shelter in place is bad and no one is going to change your mind. I applaud you taking a stand and not backing down. I for one, after having a child in quarantine for 14 days because 2 co-workers tested positive, see it differently. My kiddo came through it with flying colors and is now back at work, from home.

Happy to hear that zz, always nice to hear a little good news these days. Just goes to point out it's one thing to pontificate in the abstract and quite another when it actually hits home.

[Deleted User 14896]

As I read this thread, the thought crossed my mind "How isolated is Sweden anyway".
It's always been my impression that not only Sweden, but also Norway and Finland, they all pretty much stay put.
Primarily because of the geographical barriers, (deep fjords and high mountain ranges), residents of the three Lapland countries don't often venture beyond their own borders.
I have no idea if this truly is a contributing factor to Sweden's low rate.
But like I said, it's the first thing I pondered when I read the original post.

[screen glare]

bmw - nation-wide lockdown weeks ago would have cut illness and death rates. Lockdowns slow spread, allowing hospitals to avoid being overwhelmed.

I’ll trust Dr. Fauci. Not your political ideology-driven, greed-driven viewpoint - from which you must force square pegs into round holes at all times - even though they don’t fit at all times.

Continue to struggle with your one theory of everything - in all circumstances. Even when desperate times call for desperate measures.

How’s your mentor President Herbert Hoover doing?
At least one historian calls him the patron saint of failed presidents - a reputation forged during The Great Depression.

No real worries, though. Trump has a sure-fire ace in the hole. Wise Jared - Boy Genius.

[audiophile]

I have to wonder if certain DNA (nationalities) have a different immune response to it.

Males get hit harder with this, which might related to high blood pressure and/or smoking.

[TC Talks]

I have to wonder if certain DNA (nationalities) have a different immune response to it.

I hope so, I am 80% Scandinavian. I also know that Swedes are respectful and smart enough to be responsible without the stronger measures we have in the US that are barely working. That comes from a well educated society. They are also a socialist democracy.

[bmw]

bmw - nation-wide lockdown weeks ago would have cut illness and death rates. Lockdowns slow spread, allowing hospitals to avoid being overwhelmed.

Just one problem with this speculation - you're not taking into consideration the fact that public opinion two weeks prior to the first states instituting shutdowns was drastically different. The vast majority of Americans at that time would have been strongly opposed to such measures, and as such, your speculation does not take into consideration to what degree the average American would have been willing to abide by such measures. At that time, we had a mere 53 officially reported cases and I believe only 1 death (Feb 29). The government derives its power from its citizens (not the other way around), and as such, I don't think many Americans (or even law enforcement for that matter) would have taken lockdown seriously at that time.

Continue to struggle with your one theory of everything - in all circumstances. Even when desperate times call for desperate measures.

Constitutional protections don't (or at least shouldn't) magically disappear in desperate times. I won't be the least bit surprised if several examples of government overreach lead to lawsuits that find their way to the US Supreme Court. I read somewhere that already the NRA has sued the state of New York over the closure of gun stores.

[bmw]

As I read this thread, the thought crossed my mind "How isolated is Sweden anyway".
It's always been my impression that not only Sweden, but also Norway and Finland, they all pretty much stay put.
Primarily because of the geographical barriers, (deep fjords and high mountain ranges), residents of the three Lapland countries don't often venture beyond their own borders.
I have no idea if this truly is a contributing factor to Sweden's low rate.
But like I said, it's the first thing I pondered when I read the original post.

Of that list - Norway is probably the most comparable nation. And you'll note that despite Norway's much stricter government restrictions, they actually have a somewhat higher infection rate than Sweden.

[bmw]

I have to wonder if certain DNA (nationalities) have a different immune response to it.

I hope so, I am 80% Scandinavian. I also know that Swedes are respectful and smart enough to be responsible without the stronger measures we have in the US that are barely working. That comes from a well educated society. They are also a socialist democracy.

Wow, we finally agree on something - that the measures we have here in the US are "barely working." Now that we agree on this point, is the marginal benefit we might be getting from these measures worth the significant negative side effects to the economy?

[Rate This]

I have to wonder if certain DNA (nationalities) have a different immune response to it.

I hope so, I am 80% Scandinavian. I also know that Swedes are respectful and smart enough to be responsible without the stronger measures we have in the US that are barely working. That comes from a well educated society. They are also a socialist democracy.

Wow, we finally agree on something - that the measures we have here in the US are "barely working." Now that we agree on this point, is the marginal benefit we might be getting from these measures worth the significant negative side effects to the economy?

If it saves people... which cannot be rebuilt, reimagined or fixed after they are gone than yes. The economy will live on and all of those things above will happen. Have some humanity for once.

[TC Talks]

I am suggesting that the US lacks a proper education system like Sweden has and that we need Shelter in Place for our ignorant and entitled citizens.

Grand Rapids (1 million people) has 1 death.

[bmw]

If it saves people... which cannot be rebuilt, reimagined or fixed after they are gone than yes. The economy will live on and all of those things above will happen. Have some humanity for once.

Being accused of having no humanity is becoming rather tiresome. I think I've made my position quite clear - that I think some of what we're doing as a society will cause more damage to humanity as a whole in the long-term than will this virus. You can disagree with that assertion all you want, but don't call me inhumane just because my opinion of what would be best for humanity is different from yours.

Now that said, I presume you're in favor of the following:

1 - Banning all cell phones until we can get 100% of the population to stop texting while driving
2 - Banning all medications that have a possible side effect of "death."
3 - Banning tobacco (second-hand smoke kills)
4 - Banning alcohol (drunken boyfriends kill women)
6 - Banning all guns (guns kill lots of people)
7 - Banning knives (knives are used to kill people)
8 - Banning any other item or activity that carries a risk of killing somebody other than one's self.

Got it.