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Flint Water trials cancelled

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TC Shuts Up
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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by TC Shuts Up » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:40 am

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:27 am
Forgetting to add anti-corrosive agents was due to a boneheaded consultant firm. Had they added non-corrosives there would have been no story. But by then damage was done and the switch back to Detroit water supply was only way to gain public trust again.
You are half right.

Yes - proper non-corrosive additives would indeed had made this a non-story. I've mentioned that repeatedly over the past couple years. Proper non-corrosive additives and proper technology at the Flint Water Plant would've made usage of the Flint River palatable.

But it was the MDEQ - who are supposed to be EXPERTS - who advised that non-corrosive additives were not needed. Then, certain individuals in the MDEQ willfully engaged in a cover-up to hide the dangers of their terrible mistake from the public!!! How on earth is the latter not criminal?!?!?!
Also, the reason the Flint officials switched over to Flint River water was THAT THEY WERE BEING OVERCHARGED FOR DETROIT WATER BY OFFICIALS IN DETROIT.
Your allegation of "overcharging" is really a mathematical calculation arising from the fact a very high percentage of Flint residents weren't paying their water bills. The payees were having to pay high rates to subsidize free loaders. It has nothing to do with Detroit residents. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I lived in Warren for 11 years - the water comes from Detroit - and the rates I paid there were DIRT CHEAP. Why? Simple! Warren residents pay their water bills en masse in a timely fashion. Sterling Heights also has very affordable rates, and their water comes from Detroit.
THERE ARE A LOT MORE PEOPLE IN DETROIT NOT PAYING THEIR WATER BILLS, LIKE SEVEN TIMES AS MANY, THAN FLINT PEOPLE. THEY PROBABLY ALL THINK WATER SHOULD BE FREE LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE BERNIE AND AOCD ARE PROMISING!
Last edited by TC Shuts Up on Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:43 am

Yes, a lot of them do think water should be free. But suburbanites and Flintites aren't the ones subsidizing non-payment of those bills from Detroit; other Detroit residents are the ones subsidizing the delinquencies of their fellow Detroit residents.



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by TC Shuts Up » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:56 am

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:43 am
Yes, a lot of them do think water should be free. But suburbanites and Flintites aren't the ones subsidizing non-payment of those bills from Detroit; other Detroit residents are the ones subsidizing the delinquencies of their fellow Detroit residents.
But then why were the Suburbanites in Genesee County paying exorbitant rates? One reason was given that the water had to be taken uphill, over the invisible but small, real "mountain range" in between. I think another factor is that the Detroit Water System and Detroit officials do not like the Karegnondi Pipeline because they will lose those PAYING CUSTOMERS in Suburban Genesee County, those "invisible" 300,000 or so people drinking the water.

Where I now reside much of the time, we have residents with wells that use groundwater to water their lawns. Before most people lived in Big City Suburbs, the big cities had laws forbidding well drilling, and probably still do. It may be a legal loophole to use the shallow groundwater wells, since the reason given for well drilling restriction is health issues, rather than competition with the water system. I would think that with all the activated charcoal and new gel filtration methods, you should easily be able to make potable water from the shallow groundwater. There's the "free water" that isn't quite free.

PbH2O!
Last edited by TC Shuts Up on Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by audiophile » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:18 am

I don't believe MDEQ told them not too. Even after they knew corrosion was an issue I don't think the consultant firm gave them good advice. The corrosion issue goes back to 1950's when GM switched to Detroit Water Supply for Flint Operations for that very reason.

Flint hired a consulting firm on the water switchover, and they advised Flint on what to do. Since the Flint River was used originally used to supply Flint and was still mixed with Detroit water during high demand, no one really gave it much thought. If the Flint River was mixed with Detroit Water supply the Legionnaires issue would possibly been an issue then too, except no one was looking.

Detroit Water System demanded higher and higher rates and a 30-yr agreement. With Khareghondi a future possibility I think everyone agreed with using the Flint River.

PS Both Khareghondi and Detroit Water System pull water for that region from Lakeport, MI (somewhere between WGRT and WBTI).


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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:36 am

I don't believe MDEQ told them not too.
The MDEQ advised local officials that additives were not necessary, that only "monitoring" for a period of six months was required. That has been a highly documented fact. Read all the articles about the MDEQ's (non)-understanding of the federal lead & copper rule.

Then, when the MDEQ learned water samples were coming back with excessively high lead levels, they tampered with the results!!!

The decision to use the Flint River in principle was never an issue with me. The decision to use it with (a) insufficiently trained water plant personnel, (b) without proper additives and (c) with a clueless MDEQ overseeing the transition is the issue.



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by audiophile » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:38 am

Honestly what is the harm in anyone having a well?

I can see them requiring you to connect to sewer, due to small lot size.

As long as you pay your sewer bill who cares.

I have a Well and Septic and my monthly cost is zero.


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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by FET-500 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:46 am

TC Talks wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:29 pm
I am wondering if Schuette's office didn't actually do an investigation because it was merely a campaign stunt. So now they have to start over and open a real investigation.
An investigation was done and the information has turned Marc Edwards into an apostate. Once the hero of the day, Flint no longer has love for Prof. Edwards.

From the horse's mouth... http://flintwaterstudy.org/



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by FET-500 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:00 am

audiophile wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:38 am
Honestly what is the harm in anyone having a well?

I can see them requiring you to connect to sewer, due to small lot size.

As long as you pay your sewer bill who cares.

I have a Well and Septic and my monthly cost is zero.
The USGS has maps of most areas that show what is going on with groundwater - arsenic is a concern and is pretty common in the area surrounding Flint. https://mi.water.usgs.gov/pdf/genesee_f ... t_1.11.pdf

You can see the effect of a community still running septic systems by searching for nitrate contamination. https://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/ ... 0211_7.pdf



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by TC Shuts Up » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:27 am

I would think that there are filters for Arsenic, and Lead filters are now becoming very popular due to the Flint situation and the strong suspicion by many that it is not limited to Flint in any way. Radon filters for heat exchanger, furnace and HVAC systems are becoming very common in Washtenaw and Livingston Counties.

As far as septic systems, they are infinitely preferable to the sewage back ups into basements along the overflowing Twelve Towns Drain in Oakland and Macomb Counties.


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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by FET-500 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:34 am

TC Shuts Up wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:27 am
I would think that there are filters for Arsenic, and Lead filters are now becoming very popular due to the Flint situation and the strong suspicion by many that it is not limited to Flint in any way. Radon filters for heat exchanger, furnace and HVAC systems are becoming very common in Washtenaw and Livingston Counties.

As far as septic systems, they are infinitely preferable to the sewage back ups into basements along the overflowing Twelve Towns Drain in Oakland and Macomb Counties.

No, they really have issues and there is reason to do away with them. https://www.oakgov.com/health/informati ... trate.aspx



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by TC Talks » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:34 am

Spetic is not a sustainable solution for populated areas. I can think of I can think of several areas where growth has come to a halt because of lack of a sewer system.


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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by FET-500 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:24 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:43 am
Yes, a lot of them do think water should be free. But suburbanites and Flintites aren't the ones subsidizing non-payment of those bills from Detroit; other Detroit residents are the ones subsidizing the delinquencies of their fellow Detroit residents.
This statement could not be more incorrect.



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by MWmetalhead » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:52 am

FET-500: Sorry, but I maintain that I am largely correct on this. You really should do some research before making blanket dismissals of other people's remarks.

Rates in cities with high delinquencies - all else equal - are generally higher than in cities with low delinquencies. That is a fact.

Here is a partial explanation from the City of Birmingham:
https://www.bhamgov.org/government/depa ... _rates.php

The GLWA portion of the water bill is only one factor in determining the overall water rate paid by customers in a particular community. Specifically, GLWA passes through its wholesale cost to each community it supplies. Distance & elevation considerations are taken into account. True - Flint is likely disadvantaged here. Flint therefore is billed a higher wholesale cost per user from GLWA than some other communities in the region.

However, if collection rates are poor (delinquency rates are high) within a given community - say, Flint - then that community has no logical choice but to jack up rates to cover the wholesale cost payable to the GLWA, not to mention any costs incurred by the community in question on a local level. The people who pay in that particular municipality, in effect, are subsidizing the people who don't pay.

In establishing wholesale cost, GLWA does NOT take into consideration delinquency rates across the system and then "spread them out" across the entire system, as you seem to be asserting.

I suggest reading page 11 - paragraph 8 - of this document:
https://www.wixomgov.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=1460

Here is the key sentence:
Each community makes its own decisions on what to charge customers for water.
In other Flint Water news - the below developments are EXTREMELY disappointing:



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by FET-500 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:52 pm

This has been going on longer than. most know. I know one of the Federal guys who sat on the original corruption 1960's case in Flint regarding water supply. Flint was ordered by the EPA to unfuck their situation on two occasions. You're talking about GLWA but that was after the fact. By the time GLWA was established, Flint's Mayor was already two years in arrears on her water bill.



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Re: Flint Water trials cancelled

Post by Ben Zonia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:27 pm

The 1960s Flint and Suburban water crisis had more to do with drought from low rainfall than anything else. It should have been made temporary rather than permanent. The suburbs had wells, and the wells were going dry. It probably would have fixed itself for decades. It was the same old same old CENTRALIZATION arguments, Federal>State>Local government. There WAS a racial motivation. Radical Black Leaders revealed that they would eventually "strangle the suburbs", in their own words, by shutting off their water. We're seeing the same CENTRALIZATION arguments about eliminating individual transportation and pushing ride sharing, Uber/Lyft/etc., bikes to share, public transportation, the largely failed Segway type scooters, etc. All of these made people more likely to get beat up, sexually assaulted, and robbed, and even murdered. The global warming arguments are based in lies, according to some fearless meteorologists, including the founder of the Weather Channel. No one is saying we should pollute the planet, and not to use BETTER, more efficient technology. CFL bulbs have flamed out due to FAR SUPERIOR LED technology that has become cheaper, that can even create pleasant color temperature light, rather than the harsh bluish CFLs with their near UV and UV leakage problems. CFLs can also cause fires if placed on dimmers.


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