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A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

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Ben Zonia
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A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Ben Zonia » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:36 pm

A few days ago, William S. Ballenger III, Grandson of Automobile Pioneer William S. Ballenger, was viciously attacked as a partisan hack for voicing a different opinion about the Flint Water Crisis, and dismissed from Inside Michigan Politics, which he founded. He said he had talked to other doctors and officials at Hurley and in Flint that had a more measured analysis of the Crisis. Of course, because these doctors and officials are worried about their positions and physical well being for going against the mob mentality, they were attacked for daring to voice their positions without revealing their identities. The article briefly and succinctly describes exactly the cause of the increased levels, how it is not as widespread as reported, and how other communities may have much higher lead and other dangerous elements in their water. How many times have you drank water in another community or from a well, that looked, smelled, and tasted funny, and stained the fixtures? Were you told that it was just "minerals" in the water, particularly iron in the water? Are you sure that is all it was? Are you aware that there are areas near Ann Arbor that have dangerously high Radon levels? Did you know that Radon comes from the nuclear fission of URANIUM, RADIUM and other RADIOACTIVE elements that are in the soil? Eventually, these break down to LEAD. Couldn't these also be found in the soil and groundwater near Ann Arbor? Where do we draw the line? Where political expediency is involved? Let's be careful what we get into. Let's not impugn people's reputations just based on the fact that they express a different opinion.

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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:19 pm

How many times have you drank water in another community or from a well, that looked, smelled, and tasted funny, and stained the fixtures?
In my case? Precisely ZERO times.


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Bryce » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:37 pm

Doing some "web research" it seems, at least in 1997, that 4.4 percent of children six and under measured higher than the government standard for acceptable levels of lead nationwide. Wasn't the Flint test at 2.2 percent? Hmmmm


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Deleted User 8570 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:40 pm

Bryce wrote:Doing some "web research" it seems, at least in 1997, that 4.4 percent of children six and under measured higher than the government standard for acceptable levels of lead nationwide. Wasn't the Flint test at 2.2 percent? Hmmmm
Any accidental lead exposure like this is a crime... Be it 4.4 or 2.2... Plus we've made a lot of progress eliminating lead in the last 20 years...



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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Bryce » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:44 pm

NS8401 wrote:
Bryce wrote:Doing some "web research" it seems, at least in 1997, that 4.4 percent of children six and under measured higher than the government standard for acceptable levels of lead nationwide. Wasn't the Flint test at 2.2 percent? Hmmmm
Any accidental lead exposure like this is a crime... Be it 4.4 or 2.2... Plus we've made a lot of progress eliminating lead in the last 20 years...
Point is, and I can't say for certain in 2016, but if 2.2 is below the national average what's to say the water is the direct cause?


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Deleted User 8570 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:02 am

Bryce wrote:
NS8401 wrote:
Bryce wrote:Doing some "web research" it seems, at least in 1997, that 4.4 percent of children six and under measured higher than the government standard for acceptable levels of lead nationwide. Wasn't the Flint test at 2.2 percent? Hmmmm
Any accidental lead exposure like this is a crime... Be it 4.4 or 2.2... Plus we've made a lot of progress eliminating lead in the last 20 years...
Point is, and I can't say for certain in 2016, but if 2.2 is below the national average what's to say the water is the direct cause?
But we don't even know if the national average is vastly different than in 1997... You're making a dangerous assumption...



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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by audiophile » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:06 am

MWmetalhead wrote:
How many times have you drank water in another community or from a well, that looked, smelled, and tasted funny, and stained the fixtures?
In my case? Precisely ZERO times.
That is odd, MW. Anyone with a well will have some mineral staining. Many small towns are well fed. Do you not get out much? :blink

Recently at the resort I was staying at I thought the water was funny, so ran it through a paper filter the residue was green. I assume it was organic matter.


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:49 am

I've certainly drinken well water, but it's never been discolored. The only staining on the sink has been minor "hard water" stains.


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Ben Zonia » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:04 am

"Hard water" means that there are impurities in the water, often "minerals" which are usually oxides of various metals that are in the soil. They may be dismissed as Iron, but other metals may also be in there. As far as Iron, have you ever thought of what might be a source of at least some of the Iron, particularly near the surface? Ever heard of hemoglobin, from red blood cells? What is an important component of hemoglobin? Iron. Where did the red blood cells come from? Without getting too graphic, think thousands of years of animals in the woods, doing what animals in the woods do. Not pretty. And if there is Lead in the well water, not the supply pipes, you may have a Radon problem too, because Lead is one ultimate isotopic product from the decay (nuclear fission) of radioactive isotopes like Uranium, Thorium, Radium, etc. People are building H*** houses in areas where there is Radon, and it has to be vented out of basements with expensive ventilation systems. Why haven't you heard of this? Wouldn't you keep quiet if you had bought an expensive house, and found out it has a Radon problem? Wouldn't you and your neighbors be worried about resale value?

The point is, when you start pointing fingers, you might find that there are other embarrassing water and man made and natural problems that you might not want to know about. It might be in your City too. If every house in every City had water and other extensive testing, who knows what we might find out? And its not like you couldn't get a water sample and an honest Chemist to test it.


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:27 am

It's not present in my city. My water tastes as it should, leaves no staining, and is the "right" color.

I receive testing data in the mail two or four times annually. In all respects, my water has never been even remotely close to violating permitted limits of TTM, metallic compounds, bacteria, lead, etc.

Unless the data are inherently flawed or a flat out lie, my water is fine.


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Ben Zonia » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:12 pm

You have the water tested yourself?

Most people would just use filters on their faucet or refrigerator, or buy bottled water for drinking. Do you think there is something wrong with your water?

The pH argument is also not well understood by the masses. I have seen articles that say the water is acidic and the pH is too high. That reflects a zero understanding of even High School Chemistry. Acidic water has a low pH, not a high pH. And how low is low? A person who remembers High School Chemistry at all knows that a pH of 7.0 is neutral-not acidic or basic. And its not a linear scale, it's logarithmic. A pH of 6.5 would be acidic, and have about three times the number of hydrogen protons in a given amount of water. The pH of the stomach can vary from 1-2 after a high protein meal to 4-5 between meals. So from that standpoint, some acidity is harmless.

The effect of acid on lead pipes is another matter. But there has been no consistency even in block level lead levels. And you have to wonder how many other cities are whistling past the cemetery on this issue, and many others.

We are talking about a federal lead level standard of 5 parts per BILLION, which has been reduced considerably since the 1970s. Children in the 1970s had much higher levels of lead in their bodies. We should be worrying more about fetal alcohol syndrome and other risks of that type, where people have control over ingesting harmful substances. In any event, like deindustrialization, Flint may be just the canary in the mine of national scandals about lead and other water impurities.

I happen to know some people who tested water in GM Plants in Flint. The fact that the water was corrosive was constantly dealt with. This is not just a Flint problem. Parts washers nationwide are supposed to add basic detergents added so they won't rust and otherwise oxidize and corrode. The problem was that the parts washers needed to be maintained, like toilets, so the floats operated properly and the parts washers didn't constantly run water, diluting the detergent and lowering the pH. Parts washers are used everywhere, not just in Flint. Even neutral pH 7.0 water rusts parts.


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by TC Talks » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:24 pm

Ben,

You are attempting to discount the scientists who have done water studies around the country, and measured Flint's water? This is their area of expertise, and they have concluded there is a problem in Flint that is outside the acceptable range of healthy water.

GM also stopped using this water because it is outside the range of acceptable for the functionality of their uses too.

You can always find someone (usually not experienced in the science) who will come up with a reasonable sounding counter point to an issue if you look for it hard enough. Do you think the earth is flat? Did we in fact land on the moon? Why did 9-11 actually occur?

Climate change is another example of solid evidence that is proving to be valid as 93% of all scientists (including those at Mobil) have been saying for years. What is your motivation to refute the science behind Flint's water issues?


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Ben Zonia » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:13 pm

Mr. Talks, when people talk about acidity of water and a high pH, I know they have zero original credibility in science. They are just quoting someone else. Bill Ballenger III lives in Flint and drinks the water, and he talks to people who know that this is overblown. He is a respected leader. His grandfather was one of the founders of General Motors. These people are afraid to speak out publicly because of arguments like yours, that there can be no disputes in science. If you really knew about science, you would know that there are plenty of disputes, and that nothing is ever "settled".


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by TC Talks » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:59 am

So, let's go back to my post...

A) Virginia Tech is a leader in water quality.
B) A VT scientist concluded that areas of flint that still have lead pipes now have a leaching issue.
C) Does Bill live in one of the affected areas?
D) Did Bill conduct an extensive investigation, or did he share his opinion but presented it as a fact in the publication that rightfully fired him?

My Grandfather built clutch plates, does that allow me to credibly pronounce that all GM Transmissions are faulty because I had a transmission fail on my car? No, because it's called being anecdotal (sp).

Everything I have read suggests that only a portion of the pipes in Flint are lead. In fact, only the older (and poorer) parts of Flint have lead water issues. I bet Bill lives in a very nice part of town, but his legal residence is Ovid, Michigan. http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/balla ... #146.85.93

Nothing in science is ever settled, but let's leave the discourse to learned experts in the field and not put much attention to a trust-fundie who almost bankrupted his magazine and had to sell it... His opinions I think we can settle almost immediately after he thinks them.
Last edited by TC Talks on Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: A More Measured Analysis Of The Flint Water Crisis

Post by Deleted User 8570 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:07 am

Ben Zonia wrote:Mr. Talks, when people talk about acidity of water and a high pH, I know they have zero original credibility in science. They are just quoting someone else. Bill Ballenger III lives in Flint and drinks the water, and he talks to people who know that this is overblown. He is a respected leader. His grandfather was one of the founders of General Motors. These people are afraid to speak out publicly because of arguments like yours, that there can be no disputes in science. If you really knew about science, you would know that there are plenty of disputes, and that nothing is ever "settled".
Disputes is way the wrong word...



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