'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

Privilege is a real thing despite the numb nuts around here believing it isn't.

Sort of..... but everything people attribute to privilege isn't and some things are that aren't mentioned.

For instance a Black kid in Ann Arbor or Grosse Pointe schools (yes there are some) has "Ann Arbor/Grosse Pointe privilege" over a kid in Detroit public schools.

A black kid in a 2 parent family with a doctor and lawyer for parents has "financial/ family stability/food on the table privilege" over a white kid in some trailer park with just a mom who has a substance abuse problem.

It exists in many different facets. I never said anything about race.

[jadednihilist]

...That's where the discussion determining the role and the magnitude that systemic racism has to play in fomenting a predisposition to violence. ...

If you could, I'd like to you define what you're referring to as "systemic racism", as the variety of descriptions I've heard would reach to the moon and back. Then I can respond appropriately.

Fair point - systemic racism is definitely a term people brushes over specific examples of racism. For purposes of this discussion, I think the most fitting definition of systemic racism are the underlying processes that contribute to the perpetuation of racial disparities across of seemingly innocuous metrics, even when account for other factors like socioeconomic status, gender, etc. I've also heard it described as a more passive form of racism, where the end consequences are generally the same. A classic example would be school segregation. During Jim Crow, schools were actively segregated. While we don't actively segregate today, schools are still effectively quite segregated when you compare public schools in Detroit to the surrounding suburbs. Coincident to the racial divisions are broadly the quality of the schools. The city kids are still left under prepared, and the more affluent suburban kids continue to have more pathways for a successful life.

Another example of systemic racism would be in healthcare. Regardless of income or education attainment, there have been several studies that show that people of color routinely experience less responsiveness from their healthcare providers. Not all of these differences can be attributed to implicit bias, but with medical equipment itself. For example, pulse oximeters shine a red light through your finger to measure your heart rate and blood oxygen levels. These instruments are calibrated for lighter skin individuals, and with darker skin, the accuracy/precision of these readings degrade. A consequence of this oversight was that medical teams operated on false blood oxygen readings when treating black people with COVID, resulting in a delay of critical treatments that contributed to their early deaths or prolonged illness.

...We're not going to get there with the cable news/social media/political outrage machines, but I do believe we could with a series of brutally honest and difficult conversations.

FOCUS_HOPE had a tremendous program back in the 60s and early 70s where they brought 'inner city' folks together with 'suburb folks' to have some of these 'difficult conversations'. I'd say they were much more productive than anything I've seen since. I probably still have some of the reel-to-reel tapes of the discussions somewhere. I think the only way you could really have current productive discussions is is you banned some of the media folks and "activists" (Sharpton, Jackson, et, al.) and just had "normal" folks, perhaps with an unbiased facilitator.

That program sounds wonderful. I'll have to dig to see if there are any archives available online. I would strongly endorse a similar dispassionate, but brutally honest open dialogue to take place again. I don't think as a people we're all that radically different, but we do get hung up largely on semantics. Being able to civilly discuss our disagreements will go a long way in helping us move past the vitriol and solve issues that lead to needless suffering.

...I say this because we've never really addressed the depths of the centuries racism in this country. We got rid of slavery, but continued oppression through Jim Crow. We got rid of Jim Crow and made actively racist attitudes taboo in the 1960s, but we haven't addressed the lingering disparities. Do the disparities go away naturally - or are there some broader actions that will facilitate equity?

A lot of discussions run out of air because folks want to address past racism issues by creating new racism issues. Don't have any problem having discussions about what went wrong in the past, but lets not use those as any justification for racist-based programs in the future to "fix" what happened in the past. The ONLY way you'd "fix" things in the past is go back to the past and relive it, and that's just not possible with present technology.

I guess I view this a bit differently. I don't think the conversation should be centered around correcting the past, but rather correcting the present in hopes for a better future. However, understanding the past is critical for understanding the present. Given that there's no evidence, even in genetics, that there are no meaningful biological markers for racial differences - I completely reject the notion that racial disparities are natural occurrences, but rather, failures of a society. The details are certainly debatable, but I think this broader assumption is pretty solid. My interest is in having an (as much as possible) objective and critical understanding why we have the racial disparities such that these disparities erode. There are of course several other forms of marginalization/disparities, but I do think that resolving racial disparities will provide a roadmap for broader equity.

As to km1225's point, I would agree that there is plenty of responsibility that lies on the convict. However, that doesn't change the fact that heavily punitive approaches have helped deter repeat offenders and end up causing more victims of crimes. I would argue that a bit of help would go a long way in making everyone safer, rather than hinging our bets on people whom already been deemed to have caused societal harm compounded by punishment and a permanent stain on their record that severely limits employment opportunities. Isn't the time served enough punishment - or should the felon label be one that is effectively a life sentence?

I have no problem with providing programs that support former inmates in reengaging in society -provided- there is a strict no-tolerance policy on violations. You step out of line, you go back to the 'big house', or something similar. But you can't help someone who won't help themselves, so the onus must be on the former inmate to do *whatever* they can to facilitate their own reintroduction. It's interesting you note the impacts of their record on their employment opportunities. Just why is that? Why do companies entirely eliminate candidates that have a felony conviction on their record? They don't do it because they are required to do it. Fix THAT problem and the employment issue goes away even if you didn't eliminate the felony record. That issue is honestly not that much different than the problem of companies requiring a college degree for a lot of entry-level opportunities. Entirely ridiculous!! Most of those entry-level jobs pay entry-level wages, which could never pay off the costs of a degree. NO company would invest capital in a project that didn't' have a payoff measured in single-digit years, and they should not expect anyone else to either.

I think we're overall in agreement here. I'm a big believer in second chances and redemption despite how many times that may have backfired in my personal life. I'm by no means a perfect individual, but I do constantly aim in the direction of personal growth when given the chance. That's why I'm against "canceling" (in most cases; e.g. Harvey Weinstein/Epstein can rot) and in favor of understanding and dialogue.

[jadednihilist]

Privilege is a real thing despite the numb nuts around here believing it isn't.

Sort of..... but everything people attribute to privilege isn't and some things are that aren't mentioned.

For instance a Black kid in Ann Arbor or Grosse Pointe schools (yes there are some) has "Ann Arbor/Grosse Pointe privilege" over a kid in Detroit public schools.

A black kid in a 2 parent family with a doctor and lawyer for parents has "financial/ family stability/food on the table privilege" over a white kid in some trailer park with just a mom who has a substance abuse problem.

MCRF, I respectfully ask that we continue to keep the conversation in this thread focused on the issues and not attacks on any individuals or groups of people -- so let's try to avoid calling people we disagree with "numb nuts". There's a lot of room in basically every other thread for that - and I'd like to see how far we can push this conversation. It's been overall a pleasure chatting with everyone.

Craig, I think you, I, and MCRF (please correct me if I'm wrong) see privilege in a similar light. There are absolutely multiple dimensions of privilege, even though we heavily emphasize race. I'd go a step further and say that privilege is a wonderful thing and not an ill in and of itself. My personal view is to try my best to acknowledge the privileges that I've been given so that I can try to "return the favor" and open the same doors for others. There's a really good book, The Tyranny of Merit, that kind of speaks to privilege in a much broader sense than just race. This book largely rails against elites and technocrats who pompously justify themselves on overinflated senses of merit.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

Privilege is a real thing despite the numb nuts around here believing it isn't.

Sort of..... but everything people attribute to privilege isn't and some things are that aren't mentioned.

For instance a Black kid in Ann Arbor or Grosse Pointe schools (yes there are some) has "Ann Arbor/Grosse Pointe privilege" over a kid in Detroit public schools.

A black kid in a 2 parent family with a doctor and lawyer for parents has "financial/ family stability/food on the table privilege" over a white kid in some trailer park with just a mom who has a substance abuse problem.

MCRF, I respectfully ask that we continue to keep the conversation in this thread focused on the issues and not attacks on any individuals or groups of people -- so let's try to avoid calling people we disagree with "numb nuts". There's a lot of room in basically every other thread for that - and I'd like to see how far we can push this conversation. It's been overall a pleasure chatting with everyone.

Craig, I think you, I, and MCRF (please correct me if I'm wrong) see privilege in a similar light. There are absolutely multiple dimensions of privilege, even though we heavily emphasize race. I'd go a step further and say that privilege is a wonderful thing and not an ill in and of itself. My personal view is to try my best to acknowledge the privileges that I've been given so that I can try to "return the favor" and open the same doors for others. There's a really good book, The Tyranny of Merit, that kind of speaks to privilege in a much broader sense than just race. This book largely rails against elites and technocrats who pompously justify themselves on overinflated senses of merit.

Sorry, I have a poster who is terrorizing me, so it's easy to get distracted.

Anyways, privilege extends to disabilities too. I had a double ear infection in late summer/early fall of 2018 which involved me having lost 50% of my hearing if not slightly more. Imagine ducking your head underwater and then coming up and everything is garbled. That's how I was for 3-4 weeks. I honestly thought it was going to be permanently like that and I would have to learn ASL.

Thankfully, I got MOST but not all of my hearing back. I have about 90% of normal hearing for my age in my right ear and 80% in my left. I have lost much of my directional hearing, so I will hear a sound but not discern where it is coming from if it is quiet. I also have tinnitus 99% of the time. In addition, I have balance issues which prevent me from doing physical jobs for a living.

So, to take things full circle, that causes limitations in employment options.

If we want to discuss straight privilege and situations where I have had to "act straight" when I was with my ex, we can certainly have those discussions too.

[G G]

If we want to discuss straight privilege and situations where I have had to "act straight" when I was with my ex, we can certainly have those discussions too.

it must have been hard for a bisexual man to "act straight".

Let's put all this privilege stuff to bed. A person who buckles down, works hard, and is fiercely relentless, regardless of their race, class, gender, sexual orientation, spirituality, or disability will not be defined by profile characteristics. Rather, they will be defined by their mastery, expertise, and good, hard works. Privilege discussion is, at its heart, quite neo-liberal in that it creates excuses for people from engaging in hard work.

I know that jadednihilist will object to this, but I will use MCRF as an example. This guy is over here whining about how an ear infection almost led him to have ot learn sign language and how being bi meant difficulty because he had to "act straight". He's also sat on the dole and has a part-time job, at most, in an economy BEGGING people to work.

When you're outworking everyone in the building, you don't have time for "privilege".

Sure there is racism, ageism, sexism, all sorts of -isms, but if you bust your ass, you will get what you deserve. If you don't, then you aren't going to go anywhere. That's why social mobility is so stifled. You have to outwork everyone else if you want to advance. Outworking takes more than working as hard as everyone else in a hyper-competitive economy. You have to sacrifice to get where you want to go, and sacrifice more than the guy next to you if you want to pull yourself up and have the next guy next to you be someone remarkable, living a remarkable life.

If you aren't where you want to be, run against the wall until you bust through it or figure out a creative, innovative way over it.

Privilege is for cowards.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

If we want to discuss straight privilege and situations where I have had to "act straight" when I was with my ex, we can certainly have those discussions too.

it must have been hard for a bisexual man to "act straight".

Let's put all this privilege stuff to bed. A person who buckles down, works hard, and is fiercely relentless, regardless of their race, class, gender, sexual orientation, spirituality, or disability will not be defined by profile characteristics. Rather, they will be defined by their mastery, expertise, and good, hard works. Privilege discussion is, at its heart, quite neo-liberal in that it creates excuses for people from engaging in hard work.

I know that jadednihilist will object to this, but I will use MCRF as an example. This guy is over here whining about how an ear infection almost led him to have ot learn sign language and how being bi meant difficulty because he had to "act straight". He's also sat on the dole and has a part-time job, at most, in an economy BEGGING people to work.

When you're outworking everyone in the building, you don't have time for "privilege".

Sure there is racism, ageism, sexism, all sorts of -isms, but if you bust your ass, you will get what you deserve. If you don't, then you aren't going to go anywhere. That's why social mobility is so stifled. You have to outwork everyone else if you want to advance. Outworking takes more than working as hard as everyone else in a hyper-competitive economy. You have to sacrifice to get where you want to go, and sacrifice more than the guy next to you if you want to pull yourself up and have the next guy next to you be someone remarkable, living a remarkable life.

If you aren't where you want to be, run against the wall until you bust through it or figure out a creative, innovative way over it.

Privilege is for cowards.

I was walking with my ex bf in Warren and several people I know have gotten attacked for holding hands as I did as well as people screaming " faggot" often.

Did Matthew Sheppard deserve to die?

It was a double ear infection with stabbing pain, and I literally couldn't sleep for a month.

[G G]

If we want to discuss straight privilege and situations where I have had to "act straight" when I was with my ex, we can certainly have those discussions too.

it must have been hard for a bisexual man to "act straight".

Let's put all this privilege stuff to bed. A person who buckles down, works hard, and is fiercely relentless, regardless of their race, class, gender, sexual orientation, spirituality, or disability will not be defined by profile characteristics. Rather, they will be defined by their mastery, expertise, and good, hard works. Privilege discussion is, at its heart, quite neo-liberal in that it creates excuses for people from engaging in hard work.

I know that jadednihilist will object to this, but I will use MCRF as an example. This guy is over here whining about how an ear infection almost led him to have ot learn sign language and how being bi meant difficulty because he had to "act straight". He's also sat on the dole and has a part-time job, at most, in an economy BEGGING people to work.

When you're outworking everyone in the building, you don't have time for "privilege".

Sure there is racism, ageism, sexism, all sorts of -isms, but if you bust your ass, you will get what you deserve. If you don't, then you aren't going to go anywhere. That's why social mobility is so stifled. You have to outwork everyone else if you want to advance. Outworking takes more than working as hard as everyone else in a hyper-competitive economy. You have to sacrifice to get where you want to go, and sacrifice more than the guy next to you if you want to pull yourself up and have the next guy next to you be someone remarkable, living a remarkable life.

If you aren't where you want to be, run against the wall until you bust through it or figure out a creative, innovative way over it.

Privilege is for cowards.

I was walking with my ex bf in Warren and several people I know have gotten attacked for holding hands as I did as well as people screaming " faggot" often.

Did Matthew Sheppard deserve to die?

It was a double ear infection with stabbing pain, and I literally couldn't sleep for a month.

Are you sure it wasn't your boyfriend stemming the wrong end that caused the stabbing pain?

[jadednihilist]

Come on, G G, there's no need to respond that way. I try to stay out of the mud fights in the other threads, treat everyone with respect, and reserve judgment on everyone as we all have our own battles. Up until this evening, you've contributed genuinely thoughtful discussion points worth debating. Can't we keep that going - at least in this thread?

[craig11152]

Come on, G G, there's no need to respond that way. I try to stay out of the mud fights in the other threads, treat everyone with respect, and reserve judgment on everyone as we all have our own battles. Up until this evening, you've contributed genuinely thoughtful discussion points worth debating. Can't we keep that going - at least in this thread?

I admire your effort to keep things civil and on topic. But as a long time member you have a nearly impossible uphill battle.

[jadednihilist]

Thanks, Craig! I definitely get the vibe that is the case. It wont be long before I go back to my default passive approach, but the convo has been great while it lasted.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

Come on, G G, there's no need to respond that way. I try to stay out of the mud fights in the other threads, treat everyone with respect, and reserve judgment on everyone as we all have our own battles. Up until this evening, you've contributed genuinely thoughtful discussion points worth debating. Can't we keep that going - at least in this thread?

He's a low life. Zero empathy.

I was in the hospital 3 times due to the intense pain.

Not making a threat, but I wish someone would put a cap in his ass. This forum would be better for it.

And I am sorry, I can't let this go.

[G G]

Come on, G G, there's no need to respond that way. I try to stay out of the mud fights in the other threads, treat everyone with respect, and reserve judgment on everyone as we all have our own battles. Up until this evening, you've contributed genuinely thoughtful discussion points worth debating. Can't we keep that going - at least in this thread?

Not making a threat, but I wish someone would put a cap in his ass.

If the truth stings so bad you wish death on someone, it's probably in your best interest to fix your problems or use the ignore button, son.

No o e is making you read my posts and they're clearly hurting your lib sensibilities.

[hanson]

Come on, G G, there's no need to respond that way. I try to stay out of the mud fights in the other threads, treat everyone with respect, and reserve judgment on everyone as we all have our own battles. Up until this evening, you've contributed genuinely thoughtful discussion points worth debating. Can't we keep that going - at least in this thread?

Not making a threat, but I wish someone would put a cap in his ass.

The truth never stings so bad you wish death on someone, it's probably in your best interest to fix your problems by letting me kiss your ass, son.

I love to read your posts and they're clearly hurting my micro-penis thoughts.