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The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

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bmw
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by bmw » Thu May 26, 2022 5:12 pm

FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 4:23 pm
bmw wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 2:05 pm
"making a weapon that can quickly cause mass casualties readily available is a problem. That is also indisputable," to which I partially agreed with,
So isn't the solution to make them LESS readily available? There, we're done, thanks everybody, have a good weekend.
Careful. I said I "agree to the extent that the ultimate goal is to keep mass-casualty-capable weapons out of the hands of people most likely to commit mass casualties." Simply making the weapons "less readily available" doesn't necessarily accomplish that goal.

My questions were:
(a) How do you identify who those people are, and
(b) How do you go about actually keeping weapons out of their hands?

As you can see from the state-by-state gun control data I posted earlier in this thread, simply making it more difficult to acquire one in and of itself has no impact whatsoever on the number of school shootings.

And as to (a), we've had background checks nationally since 1998.



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Lester The Nightfly
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Thu May 26, 2022 6:19 pm

It appears that the The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) only checks three data based prior to approving a sale, the National Crime Information Center (NCIC), the Interstate Identification Index (III), and the NICS Index none of which have a psychiatric component or even a simple mental health evaluation. Stay off the lists, which are based on criminal activity and you're good to go even if you're under the belief that there's a race of men in the trees*

If everyone wants to insist that mass shooting are a result of mental health conditions then the background check is of absolutely no value in terms of a having a firearm purchase denied.

* The Nightfly, Donald Fagen
Last edited by Lester The Nightfly on Thu May 26, 2022 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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FakeAndyStuart
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by FakeAndyStuart » Thu May 26, 2022 6:23 pm

Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. Your right to speak freely ends once you tell a lie about me. Rights come with limits, accountability and responsibilities.
It's clear that in owning a car, a device that can be used both for good and evil, one has to show responsibility as in carrying insurance and passing a skills and vision test. I don't see anything wrong or "rights infringing" in asking gun owners to do something similar.



km1125
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by km1125 » Thu May 26, 2022 7:58 pm

FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 6:23 pm
Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. Your right to speak freely ends once you tell a lie about me. Rights come with limits, accountability and responsibilities.
It's clear that in owning a car, a device that can be used both for good and evil, one has to show responsibility as in carrying insurance and passing a skills and vision test. I don't see anything wrong or "rights infringing" in asking gun owners to do something similar.
You're getting 'rights' and 'privileges' confused.

Anyone can buy and own a car... even a five year old. Don't need a license nor insurance for that. Driving it on the publicly-provided road system is a privilege, which requires those things.



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FakeAndyStuart
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by FakeAndyStuart » Thu May 26, 2022 8:03 pm

Please note the edits, and thank you.
km1125 wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 7:58 pm
FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 6:23 pm
Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. Your right to speak freely ends once you tell a lie about me. Rights come with limits, accountability and responsibilities.
It's clear that in operating a car, a device that can be used both for good and evil, one has to show responsibility as in carrying insurance and passing a skills and vision test. I don't see anything wrong or "rights infringing" in asking gun operators to do something similar.
You're getting 'rights' and 'privileges' confused.

Anyone can buy and own a car... even a five year old. Don't need a license nor insurance for that. Driving it on the publicly-provided road system is a privilege, which requires those things.
What you say makes a lot of sense. To own a gun is a Constitutional right. To operate one?



Matt
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by Matt » Thu May 26, 2022 8:08 pm

bmw wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 2:05 pm
Matt wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 1:50 pm
I can see minds being changed as we speak!
You said "Also, making a weapon that can quickly cause mass casualties readily available is a problem. That is also indisputable," to which I partially agreed with, but unless I missed it, you haven't proposed a solution to this problem. Hard to change minds without solutions, and I said I'm all ears. I have yet to be convinced that there even is a solution, and thus far nobody who has said that the guns themselves are part of the problem have moved that needle one bit.
There isn't a solution.



In The Bleachers
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by In The Bleachers » Thu May 26, 2022 8:37 pm

bmw wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 1:09 pm
In The Bleachers wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 1:00 pm
What I personally would like to see is at a press conference, the officials say something like "We are looking into how culpable the family is in allowing access to the firearms". Yeah sure that would be just pissing in the wind talk.
The Texas shooter was a legal adult when he purchased his firearms. Not sure how you can hold the family accountable.
In The Bleachers wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 1:00 pm
But to me, it seems every shooter has had red flags up beforehand.
Would authorities saying they would like to hold the family and friends that ignored those red flags responsible (example Oxford), prompt more people to not ignore and report red flags in the future?
People SHOULD report red flags. But can you really criminalize not doing so? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think US citizens are compelled by law to report crimes they are witnessing, let alone red-flag precursors to crimes that haven't even happened yet.
I don't normally re-quote a long message but decided to this time. I think you missed what I meant when I said "Yeah sure that would be just pissing in the wind talk". Which means I don't believe authorities saying that would have much of a chance of being enforced.

My point is that if authorities did say they are exploring the (unenforceable) option, would it perhaps make folks think twice about not saying anything.
Yeah, it's a bluff. But why not call it?



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Honeyman
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by Honeyman » Thu May 26, 2022 9:16 pm

Ted Cruz has the answer:

"Have one door… and have that one door, armed police officers at that door. If that had happened.. when that psychopath had arrived, the armed police officers could’ve taken him out."

....and Texas' Lt. Governor agrees:

"There should be one entrance in and one entrance out in all of our elementary and all of our middle schools. They're small enough to do that. There should be only one way in, and that should be a well protected entrance."


So it's not hate, I-phones, the internet, video games, and certainly not guns.

The problem, is DOORS!
Last edited by Honeyman on Thu May 26, 2022 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



bmw
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by bmw » Thu May 26, 2022 9:25 pm

Yeah that's pretty idiotic. They going to re-write the fire codes to accommodate?



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Lester The Nightfly
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Thu May 26, 2022 11:12 pm

Honeyman wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 9:16 pm
Ted Cruz has the answer:

"Have one door… and have that one door, armed police officers at that door. If that had happened.. when that psychopath had arrived, the armed police officers could’ve taken him out."

....and Texas' Lt. Governor agrees:

"There should be one entrance in and one entrance out in all of our elementary and all of our middle schools. They're small enough to do that. There should be only one way in, and that should be a well protected entrance."


So it's not hate, I-phones, the internet, video games, and certainly not guns.

The problem, is DOORS!
That should make for a pretty interesting fire drill (think in terms of the doors at WalMart on Black Friday) :eek



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Honeyman
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by Honeyman » Thu May 26, 2022 11:44 pm

HOLD THE PHONE!!!!

The problem isn't hate, or i-phones, or video games, or mental illness, absolutely positively certainly not guns....and not doors! It's the covid lockdown according to Nazi Tucker Carlson:

"Oh, so the lockdowns dramatically increase the incidence of mental illness among young people and in 10 days, we’ve seen two mass shootings by mentally ill young people. Could there be a connection?” he asked. “Now, that’s not finger-pointing. It’s not to blame [Dr. Anthony] Fauci for yesterday’s shooting. We’re not that low. We’re not Joe Biden. But if people are becoming mentally ill because they’re disconnected from others, what can we do to connect them to others and thereby reduce the incidence of mental illness? That’s a real conversation.”



Matt
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by Matt » Fri May 27, 2022 6:16 am

Here's a solution: flip flop the drinking and gun buying ages. Let kids drink at 18 but not buy guns until 21.



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MWmetalhead
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri May 27, 2022 7:16 am

Extensive mental health exams should be conducted as a condition of firearms purchase.

Adults with guns in the home should be held criminally responsible for criminal actions carried out by minors who live in the home with such weapons if they are left unlocked.

Those with domestic violence convictions should be prohibited from owning or using firearms.

I also must say the response of county law enforcement in Texas was pitiful. Officers refused to go into the school to confront the shooter and prevented armed parents from doing so. Those first responders are complete cowards, and they are also liars (they provided bullshit accts of what occurred until cell phone video emerged). It was the Border Patrol who took heroic action.


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audiophile
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by audiophile » Fri May 27, 2022 7:22 am

I would adjust that statement for multi-round weapons, not single-shot rifles.

The constitution was written mostly with the concept of a single-shot gun.

It was 1830's before revolvers became more common.


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MWmetalhead
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Re: The gun isn't the problem. Hate is the problem.

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri May 27, 2022 7:26 am

Agreed.


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