WLLZ Applies To Move To Diplex With WDET

[statmanmi]

I'm finding that on 12/30/2022, the FCC approved the WLLZ primary signal construction permit for diplexing a 39kW transmission through the existing WDET omnidirectional antenna.

The FCC had earlier approved (on 9/13/2022) the auxiliary construction permit for WLLX to diplex 37kW through the existing WDET aerial. The lower power would have kept the expected range within the current WLLZ approved contour.

Further, the FCC had also previously approved WMXD having a separate side-mounted antenna on the WDET tower on 7/6/2021 transmitting with 41kW.


I'm wondering if Dan Gilbert's Bedrock management ownership of the Cadillac Tower is pressing forward with having the transmissions cease soon? The LPTV WLPC-LD signal seemed to abruptly stop being captured on the area auto-logger reporting into RabbitEars.info in the last couple of weeks (last decoded on 12/24/2022). The FCC fillings from WLLZ noted that upcoming extensive renovations were necessitating the relocation of their longstanding broadcast site.

Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi

[statmanmi]

If it hasn't been noticed already, the WLLZ and WMDX transmissions may soon be coming from the WDET tower.

WLLZ's license to cover for their Auxiliary operating system there was approved today (9/7/2023), after having been filed on 8/16/2023. WMDX's filling of the Auxiliary license to cover happened on 8/18/2023, and isn't yet approved.


The WLLZ filing included an Intermodulation Findings Report, with this Introduction summarizing what has come about:

"This report of findings is based on data collected at the WDET-FM, WLLZ, and WMXD broadcast facility located in Detroit, Michigan. The systems measured include a main and auxiliary operating system for the combined operations of WDET-FM (101.9 MHz.), and WLLZ (106.7 MHz.). WMXD (92.3 MHz.) operates separate main and auxiliary operating system collocated on this tower. All possible operating conditions for main and auxiliary facilities were considered. The report includes measurements offered as proof that the operations of WDET-FM (101.9 MHz.), WLLZ (106.7 MHz), and WMXD (92.3.7 MHz.) transmitters are in compliance with the FCC Rules and Regulations as required by the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 47 section 73.317 paragraph (b) through (d). In brief, the collection of measurements presented in this report shows
that all possible third order inter-modulation (IM) products generated by the four measured systems are less than
the maximum allowable level as required by section 73.317 (b) through (d). Troy Knotts of Electronics
Research, Inc. located in Chandler, Indiana performed the measurements summarized herein on July 22, 2023."


Not sure when the License to Cover filings for each of their Main operations will be made. Actually, there's not even been a Modification of License nor Construction Permit requested for WMXD--yet it's noted above that WMXD has both main and auxiliary setups there.

A quick search is finding me no recent news regarding broadcasters needing to vacate the Cadillac Tower site. The one Low Power TV station WLPC-LD RF28 filed in May 2023 to move onto the main Southfield TV tower that has so many other broadcasts--but the FCC hasn't yet approved that Minor Modification.

Cheers! ~~ Statmanmi

[Plate Cap]

I agree that W4's directional pattern is amazingly accurate. WCEN's is another I would place in that category.

I was involved at 102.9 when the compromise with 102.7 occurred. They actually had a consultant come out to the site (at the time the gravel pit hill off Scio Church and Wagner Roads) on a clear night and shoot stars to get a precise heading. Boy, that was a long time ago.

I'm curious if similar precision was involved when the site was relocated WSW when the gravel pit site was abandoned.

[HD74]

WLLZ (real) antenna was located on the Cass corridor back in the 80's.
An interesting location to visit at night.

[Ben Zonia]

I agree that W4's directional pattern is amazingly accurate. WCEN's is another I would place in that category.

I was involved at 102.9 when the compromise with 102.7 occurred. They actually had a consultant come out to the site (at the time the gravel pit hill off Scio Church and Wagner Roads) on a clear night and shoot stars to get a precise heading. Boy, that was a long time ago.

I'm curious if similar precision was involved when the site was relocated WSW when the gravel pit site was abandoned.

Here's the History Card. The last card before the end page shows where they moved from Brassow Rd. Still 10 kW nondirectional, but increased to 500 feet HAAT. Signal was much better just from that move. Later they went to about 50 kW directional.

I remember in the 1970s it only came in in Genesee County when there was a Tropospheric event. I have a cassette somewhere from my Sony where you could hear crickets in the studio in the background. Then they played something by Ravi Shankar.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/prod/ ... r_id=81447

[SolarMax]

WLLZ (real) antenna was located on the Cass corridor back in the 80's.
An interesting location to visit at night.

I remember WLLZ being on Lyndon, having taken over the original WBFG transmitter site. Where would it have been in the corridor?

[Ben Zonia]

8009 Lyndon was an early WJBK-TV 2 site. I think I saw on the History Card that WJBK-FM 93.1, now WUFL, was there too before moving to 9 Mile. Could the WLLZ 98.7 STUDIO been in the Cass Corridor then? It gets confusing when the call letters were on more than one facility and multiple History Cards are involved.

[Colonel Flagg]

8009 Lyndon was an early WJBK-TV 2 site. I think I saw on the History Card that WJBK-FM 93.1, now WUFL, was there too before moving to 9 Mile. Could the WLLZ 98.7 STUDIO been in the Cass Corridor then? It gets confusing when the call letters were on more than one facility and multiple History Cards are involved.

Neither version of WLLZ was ever in any part of the Cass Corridor.

WBFG was always at 8009 Lyndon. When WLLZ debuted in August 1980, they were still on Lyndon. Gun play out front accelerated the building of new studios at 14 Mile and Orchard Lake, maybe 18 months later. It was a long time ago, but give or take, I think it's pretty close.

The building on Lyndon is actually quite spacious. I believe the old on-air control room is where the auxiliary transmitter now stands, but I could be wrong.

[Ben Zonia]

The WXYZ-FM transmitter was on the Maccabees Building, which is near the North End of the Cass Corridor Area, on Woodward, one block from Cass Ave., though generally associated with WSU. It's not the scary area further South. Maybe that's the confusion. They moved to the Broadcast House site on the new WXYZ-TV tower around 1959. WXYZ 1270 also moved to Southfield from Joy Road near Greenfield Road in 1959. WRIF remains there with its 27000 watt ERP, 880 feet HAAT, grandfathered superpower facility. Yes, grandfathered superpower facility, due to the ERP/HAAT combination.

[k8jd]

With old callsigns jumping to new freqs etc, it gets very confusing.
I also associated the old WLLZ (98.7) coming in after WBFG (98.7) at Lyndon and Cloverdale, Formerly Ch 2 TV tower.

I see the big stand-alone tower sitting off Woodward, between Cass and Canfield is going to be the diplex site ?

Now WLLZ seems to be on the Cadillac tower downtown with WMXD
and 98.7 is WDZH
and 106.7 is now called WLLZ !
The original Macabees (now WSU or Detroit shcools building) tower hosts WGPR 107.5

I sure am getting old, I recall when there were only a half dozen Local Detroit FM signals. The Big ones were WLDM, WMUZ and WOMC. (Still are there but WLDM has new call letters (WKQI ?) )
We used to have AM signals coming from Mt Clemens and Howell too.

Who can keep track of alll this (besides the FCC and folks with a financial interest in the Radio Game ?)

Did I get much of this info right ?

[k8jd]

The WXYZ-FM transmitter was on the Maccabees Building, which is near the North End of the Cass Corridor Area, on Woodward, one block from Cass Ave., though generally associated with WSU. It's not the scary area further South. Maybe that's the confusion. They moved to the Broadcast House site on the new WXYZ-TV tower around 1959. WXYZ 1270 also moved to Southfield from Joy Road near Greenfield Road in 1959. WRIF remains there with its 27000 watt ERP, 880 feet HAAT, grandfathered superpower facility. Yes, grandfathered superpower facility, due to the ERP/HAAT combination.

(Stretchiiiiing the memory) Back in the 70-80's I was at WXYZ am/FM and recall the FM license said 27500 W or thereabouts, was also shown in dBk ! The chief showed me how it was calculated with the really high antenna on the TV tower.
When I started we had Martin and Howard (Specs Howard Radio school) simulcasting on AM and FM.
The NEW, Separate FM was an automated tape playing machine. We had to Q-Tip; the dust off the optical sensors or we would get out of sync between the commercial and music reels !
Then Dick Kernan came in with live DJs like a real radio FM station. ! That became WRIF.

[Ben Zonia]

Old station directories from the 1970s show WRIF as 27200 watts ERP, and WWWW (now WLLZ) as 61125 watts ERP. If you look hard on the History Cards, you'll find them shown that way.

WWJ-FM (now WXYT-FM) once applied for 500000 watts ERP from 891 feet HAAT, at its present site and approximate height. It was about the same time that WJFM (now WBCT) applied for 500000 watts ERP. It was dismissed.

[Plate Cap]

The WXYZ-FM transmitter was on the Maccabees Building, which is near the North End of the Cass Corridor Area, on Woodward, one block from Cass Ave., though generally associated with WSU.

Lots of changes at the 5057 Woodward Maccabees site over the years.

WXYZ was there for years; the 15th floor had the studios for The Lone Ranger, Sgt. Preston of the Yukon, and more. The studios are still there, pretty dusty and completely unused. Gives you a little shiver when you walk through them thinking what happened in them about 80 years ago.

Ben, Wikipedia claims 1270 was up there too.....any history cards on that?

After Wixie left, WDET was there for quite a while on the pylon, with WGPR moving there from Grosse Pointe and sidemounting just below the pylon with a ridiculously high gain multibay antenna that did NOT like the slope of the side of the tower.

When 'DET moved off to their own tower (don't know why that happened and the move south seems counterintuitive....but Detroit Public Schools owned the building at the time and that may have played into it) 'GPR moved to the pylon with a six bay 'Harris' ERI. That burned up about 15 years ago, and they now have a Shively main and a sidemounted standby.

I was up there a while back, and there was a plethora of very poorly installed point to point data WISP type antennas. IT guys don't do RF installation work really well.

Another interesting old site is Cadillac Towers. That had an AM array atop it for years. Ben, do you have the history cards on that available? Most of the info I have on that installation is from non-broadcasts and is suspect.

The Mott Building in Flint also had a horizontal AM longwire on it.....again, no good info on that in my dusty head.

[Ben Zonia]

The WXYZ-FM transmitter was on the Maccabees Building, which is near the North End of the Cass Corridor Area, on Woodward, one block from Cass Ave., though generally associated with WSU.

Lots of changes at the 5057 Woodward Maccabees site over the years.

WXYZ was there for years; the 15th floor had the studios for The Lone Ranger, Sgt. Preston of the Yukon, and more. The studios are still there, pretty dusty and completely unused. Gives you a little shiver when you walk through them thinking what happened in them about 80 years ago.

Ben, Wikipedia claims 1270 was up there too.....any history cards on that?

After Wixie left, WDET was there for quite a while on the pylon, with WGPR moving there from Grosse Pointe and sidemounting just below the pylon with a ridiculously high gain multibay antenna that did NOT like the slope of the side of the tower.

When 'DET moved off to their own tower (don't know why that happened and the move south seems counterintuitive....but Detroit Public Schools owned the building at the time and that may have played into it) 'GPR moved to the pylon with a six bay 'Harris' ERI. That burned up about 15 years ago, and they now have a Shively main and a sidemounted standby.

I was up there a while back, and there was a plethora of very poorly installed point to point data WISP type antennas. IT guys don't do RF installation work really well.

Another interesting old site is Cadillac Towers. That had an AM array atop it for years. Ben, do you have the history cards on that available? Most of the info I have on that installation is from non-broadcasts and is suspect.

The Mott Building in Flint also had a horizontal AM longwire on it.....again, no good info on that in my dusty head.

WXYZ had two towers on the Maccabees Building at one time, from pictures I saw somewhere, but it was a "hammock" top loaded, center fed, vertically polarized nondirectional antenna. Many stations had this kind of antenna, some on buildings, some suspended from towers and poles on the ground. When WXYZ increased to 5000 watts Night circa 1940 with a DA, from 5000/1000 nondirectional, they moved to two vertical monopole towers on Joy Rd. near Schoolcraft. They moved to Broadcast House on 10 Mile Rd. with two new towers, in about 1959.

WREO Lansing, which only operated for a few years, had two supporting structures on the ground with such an antenna.

I don't know how many converted them to two element directional antennas. The height and orientations would only rarely have been suitable for a DA.

The WFDF towers, which supported the top loading wires, are still there, used for some type of rail utility transmitters from what I heard. The top of the towers is about 240 feet AGL. After Genesee Towers was demolished next door, the FAA required lighting them for the first time. The Mott Building was not completed until 1930. WFDF had a location next to it before that. It might have been in roughly that location starting in 1923. It moved to the Mott building in 1930, moved to three self supporting towers on Bristol Rd. in 1941. They collapsed in a storm in 1957, and were replaced with three guyed towers. Those were demolished after the License to Cover for the move to Carleton with the Farmington Hills COL was issued, in 2006.

This photograph is labelled with a lot of artistic license, with the top loading "hammock" and flag old school "photoshopped". The center feed wires were not drawn in, as they also wouldn't have been visible. Again, the antenna was nearby in 1923, but the building wasn't there until circa 1930.

[Ben Zonia]

WREO was heard all over the US and Canada on a DX Test. 500 watts heard in 33 states, 3 provinces. Two self supporting metal towers supported the antenna. It was at the REO Clubhouse in Lansing.