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The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

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CK-722
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The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by CK-722 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:51 am

Every 5 degrees from the WTCM site, done by Khanna and Guill going back to 1981 when WTCM moved to 580 and 1984 when they increased from 2.5 to 5 kW, and 1996, when they increased to 15 kW. This is filed with the FCC and is a government document available on line. It goes out (Measured (M) values) around 100-150 miles (161-242 km as on the study) in many directions until it hits a Great Lake.. The estimated values (E) are mainly from M-3 (8) and Canadian Conductivity (10) over the Great Lakes. Go to the PROPOSED WCCW study. The existing WCCW site was based entirely on M-3 (E).

There are almost no radial areas in NW Lower Michigan that exceed 4 mS/m, and those are rare. Most are between 1-3 mS/m. Other studies show areas as low as 0.1 mS/m

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Att ... &exhcnum=1


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Rich F.
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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by Rich F. » Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:15 am

See my post below...
Last edited by Rich F. on Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by Rich F. » Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:54 am

Apparently such studies show soil conductivity values in northern lower Michigan to be much less than those shown there on the FCC M3 map.

It is puzzling then how WJR, Detroit has produced a measured, daytime groundwave field intensity near the Straits of Michigan that is more consistent with the 8 mS/m conductivity value shown on the FCC M3 map for that entire path length than when including the conductivity data for parts of that path shown in the Khanna and Guill report for WTCM.



CK-722
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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by CK-722 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:24 am

As I recall, WJR was in the vicinity of 50 uV/m near the Straits when I measured it with an FI meter.

Also, I think we demonstrated that the conductivity near the TL is more important than the conductivity near the far end of the path.

In any event, the signals of Northern Michigan AMs has always been much less than similar facilities in low lying areas of SE Michigan. For example, 5 kw WWJ vs. WHAK and WHGR vs. WOIB...WLBY. And other AMs which gave up-WBMB 1060 WB and WATC...WSNQ 900 Gaylord had quite limited signals for their frequencies.


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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by Rich F. » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:38 am

CK-722 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:24 am
... In any event, the signals of Northern Michigan AMs has always been much less than similar facilities in low lying areas of SE Michigan. For example, 5 kw WWJ vs. WHAK ...
Do such conclusions consider antenna system "efficiency?" For example, WWJ using a 1/2-wave radiator would radiate about twice the groundwave ERP of WHAK using a 1/4-wave radiator — even though both stations used 5 kW transmitters.



CK-722
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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by CK-722 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:49 pm

WWJ 864 mV/m @ 1 km inverse field.
WHAK 695 mV/m @ 1 km inverse field.

So yes, some difference, but not enough to explain the difference.

Between the time that WWJ applied for 12 kW Day until they applied for 50 kW Day, they did a lot of conductivity measurements, including WHAK, and even had the late Glen Clark going out on a dinghy in Lake Erie to do FI measurements, according to "Colonel Flagg" here.

That was before they started putting applications on the FCC website in toto. Unless we had a friend that has a copy, we would have to pay outrageous amounts to have an agency copy it for us. Most of us here could afford it, but it's a matter of priorities.


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innate-in-you
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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by innate-in-you » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:52 pm

Interesting that page 2 proposes a frequency change from 1300 to 1310 for WOOD.

Obviously a typo, though listeners either WCCW or WOOD would still fade away before any interference would be noted by a common listener.

I've been suspecting for decades that the entire run of M-115 (Clare to Frankfort) has 0.1 mS/m conductivity.



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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by Rich F. » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:12 am

CK-722 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:24 am
As I recall, WJR was in the vicinity of 50 uV/m near the Straits when I measured it with an FI meter. ...
That is in fairly good agreement with the graphic below, which shows the daytime 1 mV/m and 0.1 mV/m calculated field contours of WJR, based on recent understandings of soil conductivities for various parts of that geographic area. The calculations include the effects of Earth curvature, and use the "Equivalent Distance" methodology of the FCC — where soil conductivity varied along each compass radial for those propagation paths.

The red "X" and text identify Donegal, PA, where I was still able to (usefully) hear WJR one afternoon on the stock radio of my 1962 Volkswagen beetle when I was driving to Flushing Meadows, NY for the 1964 World's Fair.

Image
Last edited by Rich F. on Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.



CK-722
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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by CK-722 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:56 am

J.P. McCarthy used to answer the question as to why WJR faded out in the Daytime past Clare. He always said it was the sand. J.P. and Meteorologist John McMurray had small yachts and participated in various races. They commented that they listened to WJR in the Daytime boating in Northern Lake Huron. People also commented that WJR would fade out Days before the Mackinac Bridge. Then, as they went East from St. Ignace toward DeTour and even into the Northern shore area of Lake Huron and into Canada, people reported that WJR came in fairly well in the Daytime.


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CK-722
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Re: The Most Complete Single Conductivity Study Of Northwest And Northern Lower Michigan

Post by CK-722 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:38 pm

Art Vuolo, Sr., radio archivist Art Vuolo, Jr.'s father, was the Chief Pilot for General Motors Air Transportation Section (GMATS), based at Willow Run Airport. In his travels, he was able to listen to WJR in his plane over Central Pennsylvania in the Daytime. Once you get at a certain altitude, the signal attenuating effects of the earth lessen and disappear. The proof that this happens is that signals that leave above a certain angle above the horizon reflect from the ionosphere and return to the earth much stronger than ground wave, and sometimes statistically fairly close to inverse field for the slant distance. The late great aviator's observation shows that you don't have to be that far above the ground for this to happen.


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