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Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

The technical side of broadcasting. Think IBOC is a sham? Talk about it here! How about HDTV? Post DX reports here as well.
Deleted User 14935

Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by Deleted User 14935 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:06 pm

Did you know originally the HD Subs were going to be used as what they call conditional access, Which was going to become pay services just like Satellite, But that idea was shit canned somewhere along the line, And also there should have been commercials on HD sub channels but why advertise if there is no audience, It just seems like HD Radio’s only hope is to be in vehicles but auto companies are considering removing radio from the dashboard all together and where will HD Radio Be If that becomes a reality.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by ZenithCKLW » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:19 pm

HD needs a rebirth, and it needs to grow at a modest pace to not sink itself. It's not going to be instantly profitable. FM wasn't profitable for decades, but it got to profitability after being nurtured. But this could be a different world now, since radio in general in its current form is on the decline.

My brother works in product development at Volkswagen. He says they're trying to remove the AM radio from cars, but FM and HD aren't going anywhere any time soon. That action may be why we're suddenly seeing such an aggressive push to FM translators, and rebroadcasting AM stations on HD. To me, that doesn't say AM is naturally going to die into oblivion due to market forces, it says manufacturers don't want to engineer for AM anymore. I have an amazing sound system in my Volkswagen, but AM sounds like complete shit. It's almost like they don't know HOW to make AM sound good with all that technology in the car. But then I have a GE P780B AM radio from 1959, and it sounds better than many FM radios I have heard. I think what we have here is a manufacturer issue.



Deleted User 14935

Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by Deleted User 14935 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:24 pm

A rebirth is great if everyone wanted to buy a radio, But who buys radios other than us radio geeks, Again too little too late in my opinion. And as I mentioned before broadcast radio could have maybe 30 years left before it’s endgame, Once the 30 somethings reach retirement age who will support radio if the younger than 30 crowd don’t listen to radio.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by MWmetalhead » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:14 pm

If they're concerned about the finite pie, and cannibalization, then why do the likes of iHeart, Entercom, and Beasly buy clusters of stations? The reason is because they don't duplicate programming, and they can make money off each. If a country station has 2 or 3 country subchannels, they're duplicating themselves, and then I agree with you. But saying a grocery store shouldn't add a general merchandise department and a clothing department because customers have a finite disposable income was proven wrong by Meijer in 1962- they just had to build a bigger store. If we're going to decide ad revenue is finite and the only way to make money, then there is no growth potential, and radio will die a miserable death.
Bad comparison on a number of different levels.

Consolidation was about spreading fixed costs across a wide number of stations so that duplicate positions could be eliminated. It did not involve constructing new radio stations or doubling or tripling the number of listening options.

Most people who look for alternatives to traditional AM/FM radio are dissatisfied with content, hate frequent commercial breaks, or have very refined taste in music.

Why would that group of people spend $$$ on an HD-equipped receiver when they know the same group of people behind the crappy AM/FM stations they detest so much are in charge of the HD-only stations?

Let's assume HD radio actually "caught on" with the mainstream public. Now, instead of about 20 radio stations in Detroit with meaningful ratings, there would be about 40-50 stations with meaningful ratings. Does anyone believe for a split second that the legacy analog AM/FM stations wouldn't sustain some sort of collateral damage? I think they would sustain a TON of collateral damage under such a scenario.

Meijer, Walmart, Target and Home Depot became successful by yanking market share away from small & medium box retailers owned by third parties.

For HD radio to become successful, particularly the HD-only digital side channels, that market share would have to come from somewhere. My guess is the vast majority of that market share would come from legacy AM/FM stations (not satellite, not Pandora, and not Spotify), and I also am guessing the total revenue pie in any given market for commercial radio as a whole would be nearly flat. Since the purveyors of HD radio programming are largely the purveyors of traditional AM/FM programming, that means the whole exercise would be one of cannibalization! iFart, Cumulus, Entercom, Beasley, et al. are entirely aware of this, which is why such little effort is placed into promotion of HD-only content these days.

The dopes in commercial terrestrial radio had delusions of grandeur that HD radio was somehow going to pacify the masses and prevent them from purchasing iPods and Sirius XM. Holy shit were they wrong.


Memo to WGRD: You need to sound a LOT more like your phenomenal sister station in Davenport, IA.

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Deleted User 14935

Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by Deleted User 14935 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:24 pm

ZenithCKLW wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:19 pm
HD needs a rebirth, and it needs to grow at a modest pace to not sink itself. It's not going to be instantly profitable. FM wasn't profitable for decades, but it got to profitability after being nurtured. But this could be a different world now, since radio in general in its current form is on the decline.

My brother works in product development at Volkswagen. He says they're trying to remove the AM radio from cars, but FM and HD aren't going anywhere any time soon. That action may be why we're suddenly seeing such an aggressive push to FM translators, and rebroadcasting AM stations on HD. To me, that doesn't say AM is naturally going to die into oblivion due to market forces, it says manufacturers don't want to engineer for AM anymore. I have an amazing sound system in my Volkswagen, but AM sounds like complete shit. It's almost like they don't know HOW to make AM sound good with all that technology in the car. But then I have a GE P780B AM radio from 1959, and it sounds better than many FM radios I have heard. I think what we have here is a manufacturer issue.
A lot of the reason the automakers want to do away with AM is also electronic interference from the vehicle computer systems.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by ZenithCKLW » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:29 pm

That's what they say. They also simply don't like AM - they think it casts a shadow on what they determined to be an excellent sounding sound system. I believe they're just not doing it right.

For what it's worth, I took that GE radio I mentioned earlier in the car with me because I had to take it somewhere today. I happened to turn it on in the car, just for shits and giggles. There was absolutely no buzzing, interference, or anything you'd expect from a car engine or computer. It sounded better than my car's AM radio, so much better that I just continued to listen to it for the entire ride. So it is possible to have an AM radio not fall victim to a car's computer. They're just not manufacturing it right.



Deleted User 14935

Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by Deleted User 14935 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:36 pm

I have a shitty Ford Fiesta 2013 ( The Wife drives the 2019 Lincoln Go figure ) The AM Section of the radio crappy reception if I Bring a portable radio same deal all computer noise on the portable as well.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by ZenithCKLW » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:23 pm

When I drove a Fusion, the AM radio was OK, but if I brought a portable, the noise came through on there too. Now with the VW, the AM radio is awful, but absolutely no noise on the portable. Whatever.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by MWmetalhead » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:09 pm

Want to hear a truly hideous AM radio section on OEM equipment? Drive a Hyundai. Every Hyundai rental cal I drove between 2014 and 2016 had AM fidelity that sounded worse than GI Joe walkie-talkies. I would be stunned if there was even 1.5 kHz worth of audio bandwidth.


Memo to WGRD: You need to sound a LOT more like your phenomenal sister station in Davenport, IA.

I-Rock 93.5 f*cking rules!!! https://irock935.com/playlist/

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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by CK-722 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:12 pm

Actually, except for International Region 2 Treaties, Class As are not protected domestically for 750 miles. There is a POLICY that forbids Class B cochannel stations within 750 miles of Class As, but Class Ds are allowed just outside the 0.5 mV/m 50% Skywave Predicted Contour of the Class A using the new Skywave model. Examples of this are WCHP 760 Champlain, NY (11 watts Night-WJR), KCCV 760 Overland Park, KS (200 watts Night-WJR), and WHFB 1060 Benton Harbor, MI (1.3 watts Night-KYW). These are nowhere near 750 Miles from the Class A facilities. This policy will be thrown into confusion if new radiation efficiency rules continue. The New Skywave Model uses a Geomagnetic Midpoint Latitude, which results in contours going considerably further to the South than they go to the North. This has the result of making Nondirectional stations look like they are Directional, and Directional stations looking Asymmetric even with Symmetric collinear arrays.

A couple of other things to remember is that Class As are not protected in Foreign Countries (like Canada), or over bodies of water. So if a Class A shoots its signal over the Ocean from close to the Ocean, like WBBR 1130 New York City, WBAL 1090 Baltimore, and WFED 1500 Washington, DC, it may have a relatively small protected skywave area. Usually, these stations usually try to send a signal up and down the coast. These stations are frequently heard in Western Europe, and Northwest Africa. WKBW/WWKB 1520 Buffalo has a map where they show where DX letters came from in the Top 40 era which include those areas, though they are not nearly as close to the Coast.

Rats In My Room. The WKBW Scattergram Map showing reception in Europe and Africa is shown beginning at 0:59 in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watych?v=Lbe2c7XysnU

The two dots in Ann Arbor shown on the WKBW Scattergram Map are reception reports from Art Vuolo and John Landecker. The dot near Cleveland was from a reception report from David Gleason. WKBW/WWKB is rarely heard in Michigan and Cleveland except during Auroral conditions, due to the three tower WKBW/WWKB 1520 directional antenna. The center tower of the WKBW/WWKB directional array is shared as the SE tower of the WGR 550 directional antenna array. The WGR 550 legacy nondirectional free standing tower is just to the North.


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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by WOHO » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:04 am

We need the Class 1A AM broadcasters, and they can run 250KW as far as I'm concerned, serving the public interest as PEP for the EAS. FCC should mandate minimum AM receiver standards to help with audio quality, and broadcasters should invest in local talent and unique musical offerings on the AM band, as WSM does. Plus analog AM stereo works hundreds of miles at night, when I can get an HD station beyond 40 miles. FCC has lost sight of a reasonable goal for AM.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by Deleted User 14935 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:00 pm

WOHO wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:04 am
We need the Class 1A AM broadcasters, and they can run 250KW as far as I'm concerned, serving the public interest as PEP for the EAS. FCC should mandate minimum AM receiver standards to help with audio quality, and broadcasters should invest in local talent and unique musical offerings on the AM band, as WSM does. Plus analog AM stereo works hundreds of miles at night, when I can get an HD station beyond 40 miles. FCC has lost sight of a reasonable goal for AM.
I was just reading about the PEP Stations and it is very interesting WJR 760, WLW 700, WLS 890, and WTAM 1100, are all PEP Stations very interesting and anyone interested should google PEP Stations and Thanks for bringing that up on the PEP for EAS great stuff.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by zzand » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:36 pm

WLW runs American Truckers Network with Steve Summers Monday thru Friday and Riding The Wave With Dave weekends.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by Deleted User 14935 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:57 pm

Red Eye Radio has a lot of truckers listening as well, Listen to the advertisements, But WLW has a big following.



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Re: Are 50KW Clear Channel Stations in Jeopardy?

Post by CK-722 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:17 am

Can't find a good legend. I guess these are 0.5 mV/m ground wave contours. WTMJ is a Class III-A/Class B, not a Clear Channel. Many of the stations shown in less developed areas are not Clear Channels. Some might be Class II-A/Class B. Looks like WKLZ or WMKC should be one. I guess WVOK/WJOX just stays on 50 kW Day facilities. This plan has been around since the late 1940s, in one form or another. Revised after CONELRAD.

Image


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

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