...I wonder if Detroit radio stations will move to include Washtenaw County in the Detroit market survey area? Given the fact Monroe and Livingston Counties are already included, it seems to me adding Washtenaw County would be a no-brainer.

Adding Washtenaw's population would help prevent the Detroit market from falling further in rank.

As a matter of fact, Washtenaw Co. has enough residents to propel the Detroit market back into the top 10, with roughly a 25,000 person edge over Boston. It would also add sorely needed separation between Detroit and Miami - Ft. Lauderdale.

To me, continuing to include Lapeer, Livingston, St. Clair and Monroe Counties but leaving out Washtenaw County would make little sense. Then again, one has to look at winners & losers under such a scenario. One winner would be WJR, since their Ann Arbor market AQH share generally exceeds their Detroit market AQH share.

WKQI, WRIF and 89X are three other stations that generally do quite well in Washtenaw County, but the difference between these stations' Ann Arbor share and Detroit share isn't very wide, so in the final analysis, the statistical impact would be virtually nil.

Losers would include WMGC, WGPR, WDTW-FM, WDRQ, and WYCD since these stations generally have much poorer numbers in Washtenaw County than the current Detroit Arb market. However, since Washtenaw County's population would only represent 6% of the total proforma market population, the dilutive effect in most instances would be no more than 0.2 or 0.3 AQH share points.

Not that it matters, but WUOM's Detroit-market numbers would certainly see a big boost, since they generally command a 10 share in Ann Arbor. It would not be impossible for WUOM to approach a 2 share once in a while in redefined Detroit market that includes Washtenaw County.

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That would make sense, Livingston already goes to the west a fair distance.

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If Ann Arbor/Washtenaw were moved into the Detroit book would stations like W4, WKQL, WTKA and WAAM continuing operating as Ann Arbor only stations or would any of them move to compete in the Detroit market?

No brainer, indeed!

Arbitron does not change market survey areas just so "radio enthusiasts" can feel better about their markets population rank.

The Census Bureau does not include Washtenaw County in the Detroit Metropolitian Statistical Area (MSA), on which Arbitron's market definitions are based. MSA definitions reflect commuting, transportation, business and shopping patterns, as well as media usage. Washtenaw goes its own way too much to be considered part of the metro cluster.

Arbitron dropped Washtenaw as a market because Ann Arbor stations were NOT buying the book. Arbitron is in business to make money. Stations pay for the right to be listed, for access to the data and for the right to use the data in sales. If stations don't buy, there is no point in Arbitron going to the expense of sending out diaries.

Detroit is a PPM market. Ann Arbor was a diary market. If Arbitron includes Washtenaw County in the Detroit Metro, they have to spend even more money on PPMs than on diaries to sample Washtenaw. And the Ann Arbor stations - the same ones who didn't buy diary surveys - have to encode their signals for Arbitron.

Ann Arbor is/was a relatively small, suburban market. Small town and suburban stations don't sell their "dollar a hollar" spots to mom and pop Main Street businesses based on ratings. Their advertisers buy what they listen to, what their friends listen to or what they think their customers listen to. They also buy because they like the salesman. If all else fails, they buy because the sales rep puts them on the radio and has them do their own spots. Ratings - shmatings. In a tight market, lots of small town and suburban stations that exist on local sales don't bother subscribing to Arbitron. It's just not worth the expense. Look for Arbitron to drop other marginal markets.

Besides, PPM results in larger markets have demonstrated diary ratings are not to be trusted. So media buyers, larger advertisers and agencies are ceasing to pay attention to them.

To Tater: they cannot just "move." There would need to be an open allocation within the Metro Detroit area, and that can only occur if certain FCC technical and service area parameters are met. Moreover, there are strict station ownership limits.

The commercial portion of the FM band (92.1 MHz to 107.9 MHz) has no room available for any additional full-power stations in the immediate Metro Detroit area. That's been the case for years. WCRZ in Flint might be able to move 15 miles or so southward, certainly not enough to provide reliable coverage to even a majority of the Detroit market's population.

So, to answer your question, there's no chance in hell any of the FM stations would be able to move into Detroit.

AM radio is a somewhat different story. In recent years, WAAM had a Construction Permit to change its city of license to Oak Park and move its transmission facilities to near Lincoln Park, I believe. The proposed coverage pattern was highly directional, would've had mediocre to poor reception across the 275 corridor and points westward, and apparently was proven to be economically unfeasible at the end of the day. I believe one of the stations required to be protect at the time was AM 1600 in Muskegon. That station is now off the air, so if a similar pattern of events were to go down today, it is very possible the coverage pattern could be a little more generous

WTKA cannot move closer into Metro Detroit; there are existing stations on 1070 (Sarnia) and 1030 (Sterling Heights) that need to be protected.

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True. Subscribing owners have to approve any proposed market changes. I believe it requires a 2/3 vote.



Wrong. Census Bureau definitions might influence Arb market definition, but they definitely are not the sole consideration, and they are not a litmus test. Look at Grand Rapids for an example.



Agreed. Apparently no ad agencies were buying the book, either.



I largely disagree. The Detroit market sample size would not change. Washtenaw County listeners would simply become eligible to participate in the gathering of Detroit market ratings.



There are mixed views on this. While PPM has plenty of imperfections, on the whole I agree it is a better measurement system than using diaries. It definitely provides far better optics into seasonal or event-driven shifts in listening habits.

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To include Washtenaw in the Detroit metro market, they would have sample Washtenaw (in addition to each of the current counties). Samples for current counties would not be affected but they would have the statistically necessary sample of Washtenaw respondents with PPMs, in addition. Arbitron offers county books (in addition to other break downs). Stations which don't cover an entire Metro can just buy their own counties. But if Ann Arbor stations aren't buying the diary surveys of a stand-alone market, they aren't going to buy the county breakdown if they were included in the metro PPM survey.

Note Arbitron dropped seven diary markets. One of the others was Saginaw-Bay City-Midland (which probably won't get merged with Flint).

I checked the last (ever) Ann Arbor ratings topline. Three Ann Arbor stations are listed (WWWW, WQKL and WAAM); three are not (WTKA, WLBY and WSDS). Arbitron says it no longer reports non-subscribing stations. Two of the three not listed are owned by Cumulus. WUOM got a whopping 13.2 share in Ann Arbor. But among commercial stations reported, the three stations combined get about a 10 share. Even with the most generous guesstimate, except for fans of public radio, most everybody in Washtenaw is listening to Detroit radio. If I'm an advertiser, why buy Ann Arbor radio if I already buy Detroit? I can reach Ann Arbor with my Detroit buy.

The Ann Arbor stations would certainly suffer ratings wise if they are merged into Detroit. Most of them only reach the western suburbs.

anecdotally, as a long time Ann Arbor resident (since 1984) I rarely ever listen to any of my local stations. In the fall during football season I will listen to WTKA on Sunday mornings. I may hit 107.1 on my car radio but again rare. I gave up on WAAM when Ted Huesel died.
Mostly I tune in to Detroit stations. I tune in WUOM if one of my Detroit stations is laying an egg for me at the moment.

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IMO, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Right now, the Detroit arbitron market does not even include Washtneaw County. So, if Washtenaw County were to be added, these stations' numbers for the Detroit book would improve, not decline.

If those stations are interested in obtaining Washtenaw County-specific numbers, they can still purchase that county only, if so desired. Washtenaw County simply will no longer be an automatically surveyed market.

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Dave & Chuck are two no-talent hacks.

Improve? Right now the stations that bought the Ann Arbor book apparently don't buy the Detroit book and are not listed in the Detroit ratings. If Washtenaw were added to Detroit, the Ann Arbor stations still would not be listed if they didn't buy the book.

How can stations buy Washtenaw County only when it is not being surveyed? No diaries or PPMs are being distributed any more. A station or group of stations would have to order up and pay for a custom survey panel. Nobody was buying Washtenaw before when it was on the menu. Why would they custom order a survey now (at greater cost than an on-going panel study)?

What we are talking about is something happening in rim-shot or umbrella markets all over. People like Craig in suburban or fringe communities, with a major market's media periphery, used to follow local media which emphasized really local content, people and happenings. Stations like WAAM, WBRB and WPON used to thrive on that. As did local suburban papers. Big city media like WJR and the Free Press were a factor but local stations and papers still had significant audiences and advertiser support. That's changed. And Arbitron's decision reflects that change.

Not saying they necessarily would. My earlier point was that they could custom order a survey if so desired.

The purpose of consolidating Washtenaw County into the existing Detroit market would be to help the Detroit stations by moving the market back into the Top 10.

I honestly have no idea if a #10 ranking makes its any easier to attact national ad dollars than a #11 ranking, but I suspect the reason so many exurban (and even rural) counties were added to the Detroit Arb metro in the first place was to prop up the market ranking.

If you are going to include St. Clair, Monroe, Livingston and Lapeer -- why not also include Washtenaw? As was already noted earlier, Detroit market stations are dominant in Washtenaw County anyway. I suspect Detroit stations command a greater precentage of listenership in Washtenaw than they do in at least 2 or 3 of the counties already included in the Detroit Arb metro.

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Two big daytime considerations for WAAM are WTVB and WHLX. There is a station in Ripon, WI on 1600 which limits WAAM about as much as the heritage WTRU did. WTRU had a high NIF from WAAM and other stations, which allowed it to move to 1680 in the first place.

If WCRZ or any full Class B station (or superpower Class B) had been able to be strategically placed near Rattalee Lake Rd. and Bridge Lake Rd., where WJRT originally wanted to put Channel 12 and where the intercity microwave link between WXYZ-TV and the WJRT studios used to be located, it would have had a clear line of sight from Monroe to Bay City and a 70 dBu city grade signal over much of Oakland and Macomb County, and a 60 dBu over much of Detroit. Not overwhelming, but a good rimshot. It is terrain much more than distance, that attenuates WCRZ from its transmitter site toward Detroit. It would have had to be in the wild west days of FM before 1962 in order to accomplish that though, and someone like John Fetzer with a lot of vision for FM to have thought of doing that.

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This is pretty close to the area I had in mind earlier. (Technically, I was thinking the WCMZ-TV tower site near the Oakland / Genesee line. The line-of-sight toward Detroit from the WCMZ site is not as favorable, plus it is farther away.)

I'm thinking Ratalee Lake Rd. is, say, 7 miles too close to WGPR under current rules. I have no idea if grandfathering provisions would come into play. My knowledge is minimal on such matters. Perhaps they could transmit from Ratalee & I-75 and choose a COL (such as Grand Blanc) that would be able to fully meet Class B spacing requirements, but there'd be very little point in making such a move if it would mean nulling the pattern in the direction of Detroit.

I presume interference with Z107-9 in Cleveland would be a non-issue, since the interference zone would occur over Canada and Lake Erie. I am also guessing ("guessing" being the operative word) that there would be sufficient spacing with WPFX.

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In the Wild West days of FM, all classes were protected to 60 dBu. WGPR was no more than 50 kW from 370 feet, and the 60 dBu would go only out about 30 miles, not 40 miles for a full Class B facility today (50 kW, 150 meters, 54 dBu) , and be protected from the 80 dBu of the second adjacent (1:10). Any water overlap with WNOB over Lake Erie or over Ontario could be excluded, regardless of distance. More research is needed to determine whether Rattalee Lake/Bridge Lake would be far enough for WGMZ in those days, actual facilities, etc. They might also have been able to argue de minimus overlap, which is how they came up with 40 miles separation with Class Bs on second adjacents and third adjacents, to Class A or B, with 54 dBu Class B protection, according to Gordon Godfrey at the FCC. Actually, 39.5 miles was what was required. Present rules wouldn't allow it. Awesome facility to consider hypothetically though, like WJFM was allowed in the Wild West era of FM.

John Fetzer, being the owner of the Detroit Tigers, probably didn't want to jeopardize his relationship with over the years Tiger affiliate stations like WJR and WWJ by moving into the Detroit area as a potential competitor, explaining why nothing like that ever happened on any frequency near Detroit. Otherwise, who knows? Then again, the AMs in Southeastern Michigan had a lot better signals, lessening the need for powerful FMs, and slowing its development.

WPFX was originally a Class A drop in made possible by Docket 80-90. WCRZ did investigate moving to the WFUM-FM/WCMZ-TV tower, but it was already too problematic for maximum benefit even by that time.

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"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."